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Black Powder - Does it have a place in Dungeons and Dragons?

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EyeHateElves

Black Powder - Does it have a place in Dungeons and Dragons?

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Posts: 186

(03/25/02 07:53:01)

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As a DM, what is your opinion about black powder weaponry in the world of Dungeons and Dragons? Does it ruin the campaign or augment it? Are musket wielding kobolds a monster worth throwing at your PC's?

And now i make a further step...

What of the laser and anti-matter weapons listed in the DMG (On the page right after where the black powder weapons are listed)?

Gralhruk

Re: Black Powder - Does it have a place in Dungeons and Drag

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Posts: 3110

(03/25/02 08:02:23)

In any of the games I've played or DM'ed, black powder and anti-matter weapons have no place at all.

That said, their are certainly games and scenarios where these would work quite nicely - in some pirate or musketeer style campaigns black powder is certainly appropriate. Laser and anti-matter weapons may well work if the game is in a post-apocolyptic setting where such technology was once common but is now long forgotten. Or even in a campaign where planar visitors may have brought such technology.

It all depends on the kind of world you are playing in. If it is a standard world where these technologies are not common, then you should take care to limit the quantity and number of uses available on such items or it will probably unbalance things.

People are strange, when you're a Ranger . . .

EyeHateElves

...

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Posts: 186

(03/25/02 08:27:35)

My feelings exactly... I have met people who thing that wotc has destroyed Dungeons and Dragons by even putting black powder on a page in the DMG but i think, if used wisely, black powder can be a fun additive to a campaign. And for those who think that the musket makes bows and arrows obsolete must remember that real muskets, when starting out, were innacurate and clumsy weapons whose primary use involved shooting the horse of an oncoming calveryman.

Black Plauge

Re: ...

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Posts: 3566

(03/25/02 08:34:16)

Another common use for inaccurate muskets was to shoot them en masse at an oncoming army.

Shoot hundreds of bullets at hundreds of people and you will hit something, no matter how inaccurate the weapon is.

e^pi+ 1 = 0
\ $ Qeóz

Andorax

Re: ...

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Posts: 7052

(03/25/02 09:21:37)

It's all a question of style. A Pistol is still less efficient, in the hands of a high-level fighter, than a MCLbow is.

If anyone is the least concerned about it, gunpowder doesn't function on Greyhawk. It's completely uncombustable, but it does make a lovely silver polish.

(source: Spelljamming: Greyspace)

In the 'Realms, it exists, works just fine, and is considered nearly as illegal and dangerous as drugs. Smuggling powder into Waterdeep is likely to get you arrested for a very long time, if the wizards don't find you first, stuff it down your throat, and light it. It's considered a threat to the supremacy of wizards, and as such, is deeply hated.

(source: FR novel...Realms of Infamy, I think...not sure)

I have a campaign set in Mystara. It started off in Darokin, a Renaissance-like culture. It seemed to me that, as a "new thing", powder fit right in. One of my PCs was talked into buying an overpriced Pistol, used it a few times, and has since cursed the fact that his powder all got wet when their ship went down.

They should return to Darokin soon, and I'm expecting him to be ordering a Masterwork Pistol and a goodly amount of Powder, and sitting down to do some "extra" work on it (he's the party's Sorceror, and he DOES have Craft Arms and Armor).

"Whadda ya mean, Orcs get levels too?!?"

Gralhruk

Re: ...

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Posts: 3110

(03/25/02 09:25:06)

Quote:
If anyone is the least concerned about it, gunpowder doesn't function on Greyhawk. It's completely uncombustable, but it does make a lovely silver polish.

That's funny - ever read the Amber novels? The main character finds an inert jewler's powder on Earth that functions as gunpowder in Amber.

People are strange, when you're a Ranger . . .

Mashad

Re: guns

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Posts: 1128

(03/25/02 09:43:03)

In "classic," sword-and-sorcery style D&D... no, guns (black powder or anti-matter) have no place. As Andorax said, most of the various published campaign settings address the matter specifically, generally discouraging (if not preventing) the use of guns.

However, in a campaign set a little forward in time, such as a Renaissance culture, or a culture based on Late Tokugawa Japan, guns fit in just fine. I've run and played in campaigns that included black powder weapons to varying degrees of success... the key is to consider the realistic ramifications of such weapons on the world.

When we get to laser guns and anti-matter rifles, we're getting out of D&D. I'm not saying don't allow it, but consider that the technology that supports such weapons would completely change the face of a campaign setting... to have a man-portable laser weapon, you have to have small power sources capabale of producing vast amounts of energy in a short time... and there will be hundreds of other applications of such technologies.

In short, just like introducing any new set of rules (Psionics, a new core class, etc), consider all of the effects that it will have on the entire campaign, not just whether it would be cool for one or a few characters.

Bahamut44

Re: guns

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Posts: 3139

(03/25/02 10:05:58)

If you're going to go so far as using ultra-high tech stuff...I'd recommend picking up the DragonStar CS. Also, there was a Dragon Magazine about a year ago that has some stuff for a Steampunk style campaign world that might be useful...

To actually follow the thread...gunpowder and guns ARE available in my campaign...they're just hard to get. Plus, I don't think any of my players are interested in ever purchasing such a device. If you're using rennessance-level firearms, it's not usually so bad...and with the type of heroes in D&D...it's not really overpowered.

Just remember that our history has shown firearms to be VERY effective weapons.

-Zach
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Email: Shinji_I@Tokyo-3.com

Unregistered(d)

Re: guns

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Posts: 0

(03/25/02 10:15:49)

Blunderbusses, Muskets and Dueling Pistols make a fine addition to nearly any game (single shot, high damage, very scary, very expensive weapons) the problem arises with Rich PCs who decide to start making Bombs/Cannons.

--------------------
I don't like being right, I am just really used to it...

Andorax

Other than guns

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Posts: 7052

(03/25/02 10:22:54)

On an unrelated issue, I've another surprise for when the PCs return to Darokin.

I've been thinking of introducing trains. Obviously, they've only been gone a few months, so the project is only just being launched, but does anyone else see huge gaping ramification holes that I'm missing, if the PCs return to discover about 10 miles of track leading out from Darokin in the direction of Selenica, and a very large iron cart that people are riding on (right now) as a novelty?

"Whadda ya mean, Orcs get levels too?!?"

Bahamut44

Re: Other than guns

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Posts: 3139

(03/25/02 10:27:00)

I don't see anything wrong with that, in fact, I think it's quite cool. How are the trains going to be powered? I imagine that steam would take a lot more work to get done...perhaps not even as far along as you suggested (although it might also have been a secret until now, so it could have been in development for years).

Very cool!

-Zach
The Kor'nui Homepage
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AIM: FraggingDragon, ZOTBahamut
Email: Shinji_I@Tokyo-3.com

Hejdun

Re: Other than guns

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Posts: 2481

(03/25/02 10:58:45)

I personally wouldn't like guns in my DnD game. Just too... out of place.

When asked: Is the glass half empty or half full. "I take the glass, sniff the water, chug it, throw the glass against a brick wall, watch it shatter, and smile at the tinkling sound. Hah, whats that? Pessimistic or optimistic?" -Shig

ADaM BoND

Black powder

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Posts: 978

(03/25/02 11:17:25)

I did a game based on sea travel. Pirates and such. I figured black powder would be a nice twist to the game. Cannons were common, guns that could be carried by one man were not. But it helped the game out and the players seemed to enjoy it much.

Aninemity

Re: Black powder

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Posts: 247

(03/25/02 11:52:01)

I had thought of including gunpowder, as a developing thing, but in the end decided to hold off and not use it at least for this campaign.
Please let us know how it turns out if you do end up using it. I would be interested in how it would affect magic users and their power hold.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
If you help me, I'll give you a twinkie....

HoratioAtTheBridge

Re: Black powder

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Posts: 338

(03/25/02 12:07:30)

Guns, renaissance style, are pretty ok (campaign balance wise), as they only get a single shot, take forever to reload, are very inncacurate, and have a tendency to explode from time to time. Trains, on the other hand, will change a campaign completely. The ability to transport large amounts of goods a long distance in a relatively short period of time completely changes a society. It's doable, and it would be kind of cool to play a band of highwaymen robbing trains for a living in the best Old West tradition, but you'll have to seriously think about how it affects your campaign. It's just a different style.

ShadowKing09

Re: Black powder

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Posts: 15

(03/25/02 13:26:53)

I seem to be in the majority here in saying that under certain conditions gunpowder is acceptable. Also, however, you need to see, as was stated before, how the technology will effect the campaign world. The Chinese used gunpowder for fireworks and celebrations long before the Western cultures turned it into a very lethal weapon. Also remember, at first the weapons were much more lethal to the wielder than the target.

I personally think, in moderation, that it can add flavor and a sense of change to a campaign world. I currently have a campaign world that is several thousands of years old, yet the technology is still magic and steel based. Realistic? Not a chance. Fun to play in? Extremely. Players love being able to play their old characters sons and daughters in future campaigns and it adds a sense of depth to our game.

As for the trains...
The biggest things I would look for are:
A) what is powering the trains? and
B) what else can this technology be used for?

If you can answer those two questions then you should be set.

ShadowKing

"He comes in the night
In the pale moonlight
He comes when the cold winds sigh
He comes from the gloom
Of his terrible tomb
And to see him smile is to die."

Anonymous from "1001 Terrible Little Vampire Stories"

Gildal

Re: Black powder

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Posts: 174

(03/25/02 14:55:36)

Andorax, there are as far as I know references to black power in "Realms of Infamy" (Gunne Runner short story) and either "Passage into Dawn" or "The Silent Blade" (a pirate ship shoots at Drizzt's pirate hunting ship with a cannon). EVERY wizard that I can think of in the setting hates black powder, from Lords of Waterdeep to Red Wizards. Even freelance heroes like Drizzt Do'Urden dislike it. They see it as a threat to the stability of the realms and an easy weapon to outfit humanoid armies. The worshippers of Gond make black powder for a steep price, but don't get caught.

TallManTim

Re: Black powder

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Posts: 254

(03/25/02 15:15:28)

A cool setting for technology with magic is the computer game Arcanum. In this game, technology and magic are both possible, however one interfers with the other - technology makes magic unstable and magic makes technology unstable.

If you want to travel on a train for example, you have to declare any powerful magic you may be weilding, and it is a campaign plot that the magical elves are firmly against technology.

Also, cure potions don't work at all well on technologists, as healing packages don't work well on magicians.

raynon

Re: Black powder

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Posts: 348

(03/25/02 19:26:33)

Yes, if you want to see a good example of technology-magic integration, you ought to play Arcanum. PC Gamer gave it the RPG of the Year award.

psetzer

Guns, guns, guns

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Posts: 946

(03/25/02 23:28:00)

I'm not running a campaign at the moment, but I would say that guns aren't overpowered, nor is gunpowder. Sure, guns hit hard, but they're slow to reload, not all that reliable, etc. However, they're easy to use, and I would say that any character that wishes to may take the training to become a gunner of any sort for the price of 100 shots of ammo and whatever the trainer feels like charging. It may seem crazy that some mage could go to class one week and the next be able to load and fire a gun as a fully proficient user, but the primary advantage of a gun isn't tactical, like longbows versus shortbows, but strategic, like spears versus swords. Anybody can learn how to use a spear, but it takes training to use a sword.

Basic proficiency in a gun doesn't take that much training, especially for crossbow users, who would only need the training for the reloading, care, and feeding of the weapon. It is simple enough to use the gun that a peasant conscript can pick it up in a matter of days. Players in my opinion should be allowed to do the same.

Bahamut44

Re: Guns, guns, guns

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Posts: 3139

(03/26/02 07:43:12)

Well...going by the books, you would need to take Exotic Weapon Proficiency (firearms), which should make you proficient in all firearms on the appropriate list.

-Zach
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AIM: FraggingDragon, ZOTBahamut
Email: Shinji_I@Tokyo-3.com

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Black Powder - Does it have a place in Dungeons and Dragons?

Black Powder - Does it have a place in Dungeons and Dragons?

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