"With the eloquence of a drunk eating his own puke, you have stumbled through this fact completely oblivious."
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no interference |
Re: lawfulness of devils | ||
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Heh. That book gets steamier every time I think about it. ST, how do you know all this stuff?
"With the eloquence of a drunk eating his own puke, you have stumbled through this fact completely oblivious." |
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Second Talon |
Re: lawfulness of devils | ||
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I own what is possibly an obscene amount of Planescape stuff, as well as the Guide To Hell, and have read them all cover to cover. And I retain much of that knowledge.
I've also been blessed with the ability to make two seemingly conflicting statements (Devils aren't native to Hell, Ahriman spawns Devils) work together. It's also my opinion that while you might be able to know the stats of the Avatar of Asmodeus (The 20 foot tall Red Skinned Humanoid who's very, very charismatic), it is impossible to know the stats of Ahriman himself. Seriously. Size, for one. How do you calculate the size of a creature large enough to halfway reach around the Outlands.. an infinitely large area. He's half of infinity large? Though, I am wondering which Lords of the Nine they used.. I've seen 2 AD&D lists, each refering to different points in the History of Hell... there was this rebellion and all.. but, I'll write those up later tonight.. "It's always one hell of a party when Ragnarok rolls around." Thalantor, when drunk And now, for some shameless self promotion ... and a duck. |
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no interference |
Re: lawfulness of devils | ||
Quote: "With the eloquence of a drunk eating his own puke, you have stumbled through this fact completely oblivious." |
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Gildal |
whorlspells | ||
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The whorlspells were sort of one-way gates into the Hells. They suck food, treasure, innocent mortals into the Hells to amuse bored devils.
I think the problem I was having with the amount of chaotic dismemberment of mortals visiting the Hells was the campaign world. It seems that in most it is quite possible to visit "safe" areas. In FRCS, it seems the devils take to visitors a bit less kindly, being that there are a lot of other evil planes where most of the evil gods hang out. |
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Second Talon |
Re: whorlspells | ||
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Hmm.. Whorlspells sound like typical one-way portals
Might just be a name for portals that are somehow controlled by Devils, but.. I don't like that idea. The portals are supposed to be very, very chaotic and impossible to control. Best one can do is find one that's permanent (Or at least seems to be) and set up a garrison there to halt traffic. The random portals are just a fact of life .. and the cause for the constant patrols in Hell. "It's always one hell of a party when Ragnarok rolls around." Thalantor, when drunk And now, for some shameless self promotion ... and a duck. |
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Gildal |
gates | ||
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Actually they were completely random and heavily guarded for that reason. Although they USUALLY spit out the same stuff most of the time.
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Jackelope King |
One last question | ||
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Well, ST, you're doing a pretty bang-up job on this one, too. But I've got one more for you...
A devil's entire existence revolves around a systematic and orderly aproach to evil. A devil follows orders to the letter. In your demon FAQ, you mentioned that a devil would be rewarded for not taking the initiative and following orders to the letter. Does this mean that devils don't have drive and that devils are not innovative? Do devils ever try to think "outside the box" when it comes to their plotting and scheming, and if so are they ever rewarded for innovative thinking? "Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it's time to pause and reflect."
Mark Twain |
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Second Talon |
Re: One last question | ||
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A devil's entire existence revolves around a systematic and orderly aproach to evil. A devil follows orders to the letter. In your demon FAQ, you mentioned that a devil would be rewarded for not taking the initiative and following orders to the letter. Does this mean that devils don't have drive and that devils are not innovative? Do devils ever try to think "outside the box" when it comes to their plotting and scheming, and if so are they ever rewarded for innovative thinking?
Do they ever "think outside the box".. Yes indeed. All the time. Especially when it comes to planning on how to kill the higher-up and make it look like an "accident" Are they rewarded for it..? Well.. not exactly. Initiative and drive are good. But too much initiative and drive, and the higher-ups might think that the devil in question is after their job. And so, immediate re-assignment to the front lines of the Blood War for the devil in question. The main point I'm trying to make is.. Innovation among the devils often results in that devil standing out. Standing out a little is a good thing, for when it's time for promotions. Standing out too much isn't such a good thing, and often gets you killed. Devils walk a fine line between standing out, and blending into the crowd. "It's always one hell of a party when Ragnarok rolls around." Thalantor, when drunk And now, for some shameless self promotion ... and a duck. |
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no interference |
Re: One last question | ||
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Sort of like you do in the U.S. military.
The front lines of the blood war, that would be a scary place indeed. This isn't a devil question per se: If you can summon a fiendish whatever animal, why can't you summon a fiendish goblin? Are things like that usually half-fiends? Why can't you summon those, either? "With the eloquence of a drunk eating his own puke, you have stumbled through this fact completely oblivious." |
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Second Talon |
Re: One last question | ||
Quote: Basically, mortals aren't subject to summoning spells. A fiendish, say, bear, isn't a natural bear. It's more or less the lower planes version of a bear. Still a planar being. Half-Fiends are, obviously, half fiend and half mortal. That mortal bit keeps them from being summoned. As, since 90% of fiends (or more) cannot breed, most fiends are either physical embodiments of their plane, or dead primes. Dead Primes - Summonable Physical Embodiments of the Plane - Summonable Mortals - Unsummonable Or course, change the rules, and let mortals be summoned, and then you could summon half-fiends easily. "It's always one hell of a party when Ragnarok rolls around." Thalantor, when drunk And now, for some shameless self promotion ... and a duck. |
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Second Talon |
Re: One last question | ||
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And, here it is.. The last little bit of my FAQ.
The Dark Eight The Dark Eight are eight pit fiends with no obvious powers that make them different from other pit fiends. However, they are each very cunning in their own rights, each with their own wide network of spies and informants, allowing them to be more than a match for their bretheren. And, as any Devil will tell you, they have held their positions since the formation of the Dark Eight. In fact, no devil can recall a time when they weren't on the council, though all Devils remember the founder of the Dark Eight, Cantrum. The truth, however, is kept even from the Devils themselves, and most, if not all of the Lords do not even know it themselves, save Asmodeus. Only two of the original members of the Dark Eight still have their station. The secret is that whenever a member falls, the other seven act quickly and secretly to replace the fallen member. The new pit fiend assumes the name and mannerisms of the fallen, and no devil suspects a thing. (Well, maybe a few, but they keep their theories to themselves) Any devil who is suspected of knowing the truth is immediatly eradicated, no questions asked. Furcas - Mortal Relations One of the two original members, Furcas knows the strengths, and more importantly, the weaknessess of the others on the council. After all, he was around to watch them rise through the ranks to attain their stations. Furcas is in charge of Mortal Relations, a "nice" way to say that he is the one in charge of corrupting mortals to the ways of Law and Evil. He commands the erinyes and other devils capable of walking the Prime at will, and he does so quite well. Always quick to promise ultimate power, he often delivers.. for the standard price. Baalzephon - Supply The other member of the Dark Eight who has been around since the begining, Baalzephon retains her station through not only knowing the histories of her rivals, but through being indespensible. Without her ways, the armies of the Blood War would soon find themselves without armaments, equipment, and food. And though she is the least talkative of the Eight, she makes sure everyone knows her importance to be fact. Zimimar - Morale Zimimar is quite friendly, for a pit fiend at least. She is in charge of basically insuring the armies are ready to fight. If there is talk of a rebellion, or a hint of insurrection, she is there. Her network of informants stretches throughout the ranks, all the way down to the Spinnagons. She uses friendship like all her talents - To gain an edge. She is all smiles, but as a devil should, she retains her smile even as she crushes a foe before her. Some say that it is her duty to cover up the mistakes of the other Eight. Most who say this do not survive long, for she is quick to lash out against those who speak ill of her station. Zapan - Immortal Relations Saying Zapan has a silver tounge is like saying dwarves are partial to ale and mining, or that elves are vaguely fond of nature. It is Zapan who deals with the Yugoloths, proxies of Evil Deities, the Celesitals, and even the Demons. Supposedl, Zapan can sweet-talk the feathers from a Solar. Zapan deals with all on equal footing, never one to offend by appearing to be higher, but never presenting himself as an inferior. He is capable of making deals that are hard to resist, and usually are benificial for both sides of the bargain. Zaebos - Promotions and Demotions Zaebos works with Zimimar closely, watching each and every devil. Though Dagos is in charge of the Blood Warriors, Zaebos is the one who promotes and demotes the other devils. As such, he is one of the most hated Devils in Hell, for his watchful eye has denied many a promotion for a devil who feels he has earned it. But Zaebos keeps careful records on every Devil in Hell, no small task. Though he wields great power, and has access to every library in the pit, he and his buracracy are watched very carefully, for it would not be benificial to have an unfit devil rise through the ranks. Corin - Espionage Corin is quite chaotic, mood swings taking him from quiet brooding to all our rampages in a matter of moments. Many rumors abound that he is more Balor than Pit Fiend. But, it is all an act. It keeps his enemies on their toes, and that is how he likes it. Corin is in charge of making sure the Demonic war plans (What few exist) end up in the hands of the Devilish generals, and he does his job well. If someone in the Abyss sneezes, it is said that he knows a day later. Corin has spies deep in his own ranks, the Demons, the Yugoloths, and even the Celestials. No massive, or even minor changes take place in the Planes without him knowing. Dagon - Strategy Dagon is in charge of the Generals of Hell - Alusiel, Phanior, Galarond, Kobbis, Meathe, Laginus, Bel (Yes, that Bel, Lord of the First), Meritos, and Hanariel. Dagon weeds out corruption and inneffectiveness within the Devilish army with great success and vicious efficiency. Any Devil caught in a deal that goes against the "Cause" is quicky demoted, both in rank and actual station. Dagon rules with a steel fist and accepts no mistakes. Of course, like many rulers, Dagon doesn't think the rules apply to him. This might lead to his eventual downfall. Pearza - Research and Implementation Pearza is the newest on the Dark Eight. As of such, she walks a thin line. If she is found to be lacking in any way, she will likely be "replaced" by the other Eight. Pearza and her underlings are instrumental in the Blood War, researching new magics and war machines to be used on the fields of battle. What's more, she commands the kocrachon torturers on the Knoll of Blades, and as such she is often the first to know information extracted from the "Guests" of the Knoll. The Three Commands The Armies of Hell are divided into three commands, each overseen by three generals. All Generals are Pit Fiends unless otherwise noted. Briefly.. The First Command - Alusiel, Phanior, Galarond. Air Forces and Elite Units. Usually stuck with the hazardous missions - scouting runs, suicide attacks, etc. Primarily Cornugons and gelugons, though some barbazu serve as well. Though turnover is high, so are the rewards for good service. The Second Command - Kobbis [amnizu], Meathe [amnizu], Laginus [cornugon] The Hellish Navy. They are primarily used for transport along the river Styx, and as such are invaluable. Amnizu primarily in command, with abishai and erinyes filling out the ranks of command. Some Osyluths try to learn the currents and eddies of the river, and while their skills cannot come close to those of the marraenoloths, but since they steer clear of the Blood War, it is up to the Osyluths to drive the devilish boats. Unfortunatly, they occasionally take a wrong turn, and an entire battallion is lost. The Third Command - Bel, Meritos [gelugon], Hanariel [gelugon] Infantry. For the most part, this consists of lemures and nupperibos. Abishai and Spinagons do make up a good chunk as well, but it is the first two that really fill out the ranks. The barbazu who weren't talented or canny enough to make it into another group are also placed here. Though there isn't much pride to be had, nor much of a name to be made, the Third Command is the primary force in the war against the Demons. "It's always one hell of a party when Ragnarok rolls around." Thalantor, when drunk And now, for some shameless self promotion ... and a duck. |
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Second Talon |
Re: One last question | ||
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Well, I suppose that's it.. Any kind mod out there wanna archive this?
Hands down the illest ventriloquist this side of the Mississippi River- Thalantor And now, for some shameless self promotion ... and a duck. |
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Sephiroth Yagyu |
Re: One last question | ||
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I will, but I want you to answer one question. In the Book of Vile Darkness (I didn't buy it, just thumbed through it) it lists Asmodeus as being only CR 32. Is this just his Avatar, or do you think they decided to revamp the rules and make him not as strong as the gods? I ask this only because there's this annoying mormon guy I know who's obsessed with Angels and Paladins and crap like that, and I told him what you said about Asmodeus earlier, and now he's like "Well, you're wrong! He's only CR 32! I'm going to go play in my stupid campaign where we're all gods, and I'm going to kill Asmodeus!" And I'd like to beat him up, but he's bigger and stronger than me. What should I tell him that will really kick his ass?
Dragon Dice sucks. Its like D&D, but you use dice......wait... |
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no interference |
Re: One last question | ||
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I can't help you with the question, but I can help you with your problem. First, glue the pages of his PHB together. If he finds out it was you and he gets mad and wants to fight, put something heavy (such as a few rolls of quarters or a billiard ball) in a sock and smack him in the jaw with it. If that's too much of a stretch just slap him until he cries. He's obviously a weiner.
Always remember, big and strong doesn't make you a better fighter. "With the eloquence of a drunk eating his own puke, you have stumbled through this fact completely oblivious." |
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Sephiroth Yagyu |
Re: One last question | ||
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Well, He's not so much bigger than me, that just stronger than me. I'm bigger than him, actually. Gluing the pages of his PHB together is a good idea....I should alos pour a bottle of glue over his magic deck, too.
Dragon Dice sucks. Its like D&D, but you use dice......wait... |
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Second Talon |
Re: One last question | ||
Quote: It's called whoever wrote that part is a fricken idiot, and deserves to be drug out into the street, beaten, shot, ressurected, beaten and shot again. I mean.. His Avatar should be capable of taking on all of the other Lords by himself and be able to soundly defeat them. I doubt not all at once, mind you, but definatly in a 2 on 1 fight. And that's just a sheer brawn fight. Calculate in his intellect (Which they screwed up.. big time. Take his Str score should be his Int and Cha, and put the old Int or Cha number in Str.), and his massive, loyal army, and he'd probably be able to take all the other Lords.. at once. All that.. for a CR 32.. my lily white [beep] Book of Puny Darkness.. Book of Screwed Up Stat Darkness.. Book of Worthlessness. Pick a name, that's what I call it. Hands down the illest ventriloquist this side of the Mississippi River- Thalantor And now, for some shameless self promotion ... and a duck. |
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Cadet Hulk |
Re: One last question | ||
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Hmmm... probably right on the int/cha/str thing. However, how strong exactly are the other lords? I get a sinking feeling that the true fricken idiots here may be Ed Greenwood & co. For making CR 32 seem weak. Also, I am not quite sure on this but Asmodeus' status has varied from work to work. I think Monte mentioned something on his site about trying to allow for using different options. This is the way it should be to defend against metagaming players.
"Gold is most excellent; gold constitutes treasure; and he who has it does all he wants in the world, and can even lift souls up to Paradise." -Christopher Columbus
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Second Talon |
Re: One last question | ||
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Well, going by the MM CRs.. which, for the most part, seem to be fairly in line...
The Avatar of Asmodeus should be able to easily defeat the strongest dragon. Send him up against two of the strongest, and he'll probably take one out, severly wound the other (50% hp or less) before perishing.. and even then, he could probably take them both out. And.. that's a fairly conservative estimate from the various sources I have. I don't believe he's capable of that any longer. And you're right about the other Lords, but especially the Demon Princes listed in the BoVD.. Though I'm not as familiar with them (Especially because the Lords have changed a few times) as I am with Asmodeus, they each seemed a bit "light" Hands down the illest ventriloquist this side of the Mississippi River- Thalantor And now, for some shameless self promotion ... and a duck. |
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Syko MetalMonkey |
Re: One last question | ||
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If you dig up an old issue of Dratgon u'll find mention of a 9th member of the Dark Eight. (Go figure.. don't think it had its name.. )
Asmodeus is rumoured to be at LEAST as powerful as god if not something more powerful, so he's the boss. Wouldn't evil mortals fit into the hierarchy when they become lavae? ..and since lavae are the building blocks of Devils wouldn't that make them just a little important? ..and explain why Devils put so much time into corrupting mortals, which is apprently their forte'? Just because you live in the Abyss, doesn't mean your in or even heard of the BloodWar - theirs a host of demons who simply stomp arround their own layer, and there are those who don't want to be part of the BloodWar... Hell is full of Lawful Evil types - this doesn't mean they don't/won't backstab etc.. think of a place where evil rules lawyers are sent (ok, all rules lawyers.. Don't forget to mention the fallen celestials! I'd don't think a devil would just tear up a contract - he'd loose face with his peers - Hell, at the end of the day, is all about the rules, so if the act of tearing up the contract broke one of the 'Rules', he'd be in for it - probably via a Ashmede! Devils can work together, Demons can't, which is why you find the legions of Devils marching in tight, un-adaptive formations in the BloodWar versus the hordes of Demons who use no tactics and just swarm the Devils - since they both have such flawed extreme tactics the BloodWar is eternal... A devil and a celestial have as much chance of working together as Badgers and Mechanics - less even. Though they may share a Lawful alignment trait, their both incarnations of their chosen alignments with one being good and one being evil.. Ooh, I have a queston though? If a sent a Dust Memphit to Dagon, what could I expect to happen? SYKO Inc. - Insanity is just a unique sense of perspective.
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Second Talon |
Re: One last question | ||
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If you dig up an old issue of Dratgon u'll find mention of a 9th member of the Dark Eight. (Go figure.. don't think it had its name.. )
That would be Cantrum. Asmodeus is rumoured to be at LEAST as powerful as god if not something more powerful, so he's the boss. Considering that he was part of the pair that created the multiverse, and has the knowledge, ability, and soon enough the power to unmake the multiverse to re-create it in his image.. I'd have to say that calling him more powerful than a God is a bit of an understatement. d don't think a devil would just tear up a contract - he'd loose face with his peers - Hell, at the end of the day, is all about the rules.. Depends. Does the Devil have an advantage in keeping the contract alive? If the contract doesn't serve him, he'll find a way out. And yes, death of one of the parties involved usually results in a dissolving of the contract. Guess which member is the one to kick the bucket? Wouldn't evil mortals fit into the hierarchy when they become lavae? Larvae are more or less the Currency of the lower planes. Since both sides, Demons and Devils, can use them to create more of their kind, everyone always trades with the Hags for the larvae they collect. But, it's often a bit easier just to go with what naturally spawns, rather than forcing a NE or CE larvae into LE ways. Just because you live in the Abyss, doesn't mean your in or even heard of the BloodWar See my FAQ on Demons, and the One on the Blood War Though, I will refute the last part of that. Everyone in the Lower Planes has heard of the Blood War. I mean, knowledge of it has leaked out to the Primes, for crying out loud. You're trying to suggest that true Planars don't know about something even the Primes know? Tsk tsk tsk. If a sent a Dust Mephit to Dagon, what could I expect to happen? Dead Mephit. Hands down the illest ventriloquist this side of the Mississippi River- Thalantor And now, for some shameless self promotion ... and a duck. |
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