Lost dexterity bonus while climbing

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Mikhail	Lost dexterity bonus while climbing	Lead	[-]
Posts: 1278 (11/14/02 08:55:33) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Tags : None During a session last night, a suggestion was brought up to not deny a climbing monster his dexterity bonus, provided that that was his normal means of travel. So, a spider, climbing up a wall would retain his dex bonus. The normal rule is that all creatures lose there dex bonus while climbing (thus opening them up to sneak attack damage.) Does anyone else use this rule? Does it make sense? Is it unbalancing? Comments?
Sheleph	Lost Dexterity	#1	[-]
Posts: 704 (11/14/02 10:11:55) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	I agree. A Ninja of the Crescent Moon gets Fast Climb to climb at speed and to keep a Dex bonus when climbing. The Treetopper feat (FRCS pg 3 allows you to climb at +2 and keep your Dex (and attackers don't get the usual +2 to hit you). If a person can do this, why would a monster type who uses climb as their principal way of travel suffer from Dex loss? Either like the Ninja, as a learned ability, or through use of a feat, monsters could avoid Dex loss.
Dreams of Lost Daylight	Re: Lost dexterity bonus while climbing	#2	[-]
Posts: 3258 (11/14/02 10:40:39) Egg Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	I would support that house rule. It's not unbalancing as long as none of the players can use it. "... they swept through the fields corrupting all they touched, and the stench they left in their wake was that of a hastily abandoned slaughter house."
Mikhail	Lost dexterity bonus while climbing	#3	[-]
Posts: 1278 (11/14/02 13:23:09) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Fair enough. Question two. If you don't allow it to be flat footed, do you raise the CR of the creature in response? I'm guessing that the MM didn't factor this in when they published the CR.
Sheleph	Lost dexterity bonus while climbing	#4	[-]
Posts: 704 (11/14/02 13:32:33) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	1) IF you Rule 0 it as a house rule that you preserve Dex when climbing then yes, you're making monsters more powerful (as their AC is better and they're not being susceptible to sneak attacks) so CR should reflect this. 2) If you use feats to gain then no, you're just substituting one feat for another, and balance is preserved. 3) If you use a PrC to do this then you'll ramp up the CR significantly as you're adding character levels to the creature.
Dreams of Lost Daylight	Re: Lost dexterity bonus while climbing	#5	[-]
Posts: 3258 (11/14/02 13:32:43) Egg Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	There are always going to be differences in danger between monsters of the same CR. Some barely deserve the CR they have, others are just one edge short of a higher CR category. While allowing a creature with a Climb speed to retain its Dex bonus (which has nothing to do with flat-footedness, I may add) while climbing doesn't automatically merit a higher CR, it will provide few monsters with the edge they need. So, it all has to be done on a case-by-case basis. "... they swept through the fields corrupting all they touched, and the stench they left in their wake was that of a hastily abandoned slaughter house."
Mikhail	Lost dexterity bonus while climbing	#6	[-]
Posts: 1278 (11/14/02 13:58:51) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	*Quote:* While allowing a creature with a Climb speed to retain its Dex bonus (which has nothing to do with flat-footedness, I may add) while climbing doesn't automatically merit a higher CR, it will provide few monsters with the edge they need. I'm not sure I understand that. Giving a monster an extra ability give it an "edge", but doesn't automatically warrant a higher CR? I have two questions to that: 1. An edge in combat means additional power and chance to succeed. If the CR reflects the creatures difficulty rating, and we give him an extra edge, doesn't that mean that CR should go up as well? 2. Why does a climbing creature need that extra edge? Wouldn't a climbing creature learn not to get caught climbing up a wall during combat? Wouldn't he pick a den that allows him to attack without climbing distances in exposed areas? I guess there are two concerns that I have with this type of rule. 1. The assumption that because you can climb, it is your "natural" state. Gravity will play a big part in using your dexterity to dodge an attack. While you are on the ground, you can jump up, lean left or right, roll or stand on one foot. Not so if you are climbing. If you are a spider hanging on the ceiling, just about all of those options are out. Remember, it's not like you have no weight, it's just that you are good at climbing. 2. How does this change things for the rogue character? The rogue depends on his ability to do sneak damage. By allowing crawling creatures to keep their dex bonus, the rogue loses his ability to do sneak damage to it. This would be somewhat akin to deciding that certain types of undead creatures cannot be turned (you can make up a reason...). In essence you remove the basic ability of both characters in each scenario. Thoughts?
Dreams of Lost Daylight	Re: Lost dexterity bonus while climbing	#7	[-]
Posts: 3258 (11/14/02 14:33:59) Egg Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Challenge Ratings are always expressed as whole numbers. An ability is not always worth as much as +1, because an increase in CR requires a significant increase in power. A monster's real threat may well be rated 2.25. If you give it a power that increases its CR to 2.5 then it will still be a CR 2 monster, because it's way too weak to be a CR 3 monster. Climbing creatures don't really need that extra edge. "... they swept through the fields corrupting all they touched, and the stench they left in their wake was that of a hastily abandoned slaughter house."
UsaSatsui	Re: Lost dexterity bonus while climbing	#8	[-]
Posts: 390 (11/15/02 00:43:39) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	I say it makes sense, but it depends on the creature. I can see spiders (who walk down walls) keeping thier dex bonus to AC while crawling along them, but other creatures (monkeys, or the mighty-climbin'-Dire-Elephant) would certainly not keep it. I would probably assume that creatures like Spiders are...well, quite literally using Spider Climb and could attack without penalty. And as far as PCs not getting this advantage, remember that Vanara have a climb score. And they're broken enough if you ask me. If you really want to use a foe that can climb and keep a dex bonus, look at the Master of Chains prestige class (SoF, I believe) ---------- This is good versus nasty black-leather naughty people, and by gumdrops, good is going to win!
Mikhail	Re: Lost dexterity bonus while climbing	#9	[-]
Posts: 1278 (11/15/02 07:45:15) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	The Spider Climb spell does not allow the caster to keep his dex bonus.
Sheleph	Climbing	#10	[-]
Posts: 704 (11/15/02 08:10:19) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Mikhail, yes, it's hard to do it with magic . . . easiest way is to use a feat to do it.

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Lost dexterity bonus while climbing

Lost dexterity bonus while climbing

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