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Taklinn58 |
AoO |
Lead | |
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Probably a stupid question: does an AoO trigger an AoO?
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Akee1 |
Re: AoO | ||
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In short... no
I'm Cool. |
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Carter Lupus |
Well... | ||
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Actually, Some AoO can trigger other AoO.
If somebody attacks a weapon or starts a grapple with his AoO, he could provoke an AoO from the one he is attacking. Please keep in mind that you can do an AoO once per Creature in a round. |
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Unregistered(d) |
Re: Well... | ||
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As Carter said, it depends on what action is taken with the first AoO. If it is an action that would normally provoke and AoO, then it provokes an AoO. Just consider an AoO to be a regular attack in that respect.
"There is a theory which states that if ever anybody discovers exactly what the Universe is for and why it is here, it will instantly disappear and be replaced by something even more bizarre and inexplicable. There is another theory which states that this has already happened." -Douglas Adams |
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CelticDragonlord |
Re: Well... | ||
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Just remember that an AoO must be made while armed... two people without Imp Unarmed Strike in a barfight won't be provoking AoO's from each other every attack.
RPG stands for Roleplaying Life... Role-Playin' G'Life.
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RavenDark64 |
I didn't know that. | ||
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I thought AoOs had to be a single armed melee attack with a weapon. I was under the impression that you could NOT use the opportunity to grapple, among other complicated maneuvers.
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MerricB |
Re: I didn't know that. | ||
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You must make a melee attack, but certain actions substitute for melee attacks:
* Disarm * Grapple * Trip or possibly some Feats. Check the PHBK: you'll find that some of the descriptions specifically say they can replace an AoO. From the SRD: Disarm(4) (Varies)(AoO: Yes) ... This action substitutes for a melee attack, not an action. As melee attacks, it can be used once in an attack or charge action, one or more times in a full attack action, or even as an attack of opportunity. Cheers! Merric, the Dreamer-Minstrel
Merric's Mind Games The dreams of mortal men give rise to the gods. Who dares say that the gods dream us? Nay, it is they who are our creation, not us their's. But if I am wrong, please, let not the god dreaming me wake up! |
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Metheus |
Re: Well... | ||
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"Just remember that an AoO must be made while armed... two people without Imp Unarmed Strike in a barfight won't be provoking AoO's from each other every attack." --CelticDragonLord
Actually, you do not have to be armed to take advantage of an AoO. An untrained person (one lacking the Improved Unarmed Strike feat) may elect to punch for his AoO, but he incurs his own AoO for that action. Metheus. . |
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Andorax |
Re: Well... | ||
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Actually, Metheus, that is incorrect. If you aren't "armed", you don't threaten that space. Same as if you were armed with a missile weapon such as a bow.
"Whadda ya mean, Orcs get levels too?!?"
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Metheus |
Re: Well... | ||
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If your character is an double amputee, and has no arms, some DMs may say that he threatens no area. Is that what you meant by not being armed?
A character, unless helpless or grappled, always threatens the area around him. He can punch, kick or trip if an AoO is raised. This is true even if the character is holding a bow in one hand, or is in the process of casting a spell (though he would lose the spell if he made the attack). If there has been some errata issued, please let me know. Metheus. . |
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Unregistered(d) |
Re: Well... | ||
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Metheus, where is this written? I'm curious because I've been in debates about this before and haven't been able to find anything other than gray areas in the rules. So having something concrete would be nice.
"There is a theory which states that if ever anybody discovers exactly what the Universe is for and why it is here, it will instantly disappear and be replaced by something even more bizarre and inexplicable. There is another theory which states that this has already happened." -Douglas Adams |
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Carter Lupus |
What he said! | ||
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Some creatures of certain sizes don't have any threat range, but IIRC the 5ft threat range starts at small.
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CelticDragonlord |
Re: What he said! | ||
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It says specifically in the PHB that you cannot make an unarmed AoO without the Improved Unarmed Combat feat or natural weapons. I'll look it up in a moment.
EDIT: "Attacking unarmed provokes an attack of opportunity from the character you attack, provided she is armed." If an unarmed character without Imp Unarmed Strike attacks another unarmed character without Imp Unarmed Strike, the character being attacked does not get an AoO. Clear and simple. RPG stands for Roleplaying Life... Role-Playin' G'Life.
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Metheus |
Re: What he said! | ||
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It is true that an unarmed character attacking another unarmed character provokes no AoO. However, this does not mean that an unarmed character does not threaten the area around him, nor that he cannot react to an AoO with an unarmed strike.
Perhaps I should have shortened the quote in my first reply. "Just remember that an AoO must be made while armed..." A character threatens an area into which he can make a melee attack. I do not have the PHB with me, so I cannot quote from it, but I believe it says nothing about making a melee attack with a non-natural melee weapon. A punch is a melee attack, and so satisfies the condition to threaten an area. Metheus. . |
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CelticDragonlord |
Re: What he said! | ||
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True, I do believe you're right.
I must've missed something you said, I thought you were arguing my point about the barfight thing... RPG stands for Roleplaying Life... Role-Playin' G'Life.
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Andorax |
Re: What he said! | ||
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I may well be wrong here, but I believe what the discussion hinges on is the phrase "armed".
In several places, mention is made of having a weapon in-hand is what it takes to be considered "armed", and further it mentions in Improved Unarmed Strike that "the character is now considered armed". This leads me to think that without a weapon in-hand, and without IUS, you're considered "unarmed", and therefore ineligible for making AoOs, just as someone who is armed with a bow would be unable to do so (even though, theoretically, they could kick somebody). "Whadda ya mean, Orcs get levels too?!?"
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Golvelius |
Re: What he said! | ||
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Sorry to just butt in
but this is an issue that still causes my head to hurt!
The only requirement for you to threaten an area, is the ability to make a melee attack. If you had to be armed to threaten an area, it would have been (or should have been) stated that only armed characters (or those considered armed) threaten the area around them. Quote: Please note, this is copied exactly as it appears, and no where in this does it state that you must be armed. You must only have the ability to make a melee attack. Now lets look at IUS: Quote: The purpose of this feat is to prevent an unarmed character from suffering an AoO when attacking an armed character. It also allows AoO's to be made, in the one situation they were denied, against another unarmed opponent. The special rule that unarmed characters do not provoke AoO's from other unarmed characters was done to prevent sheer craziness when two characters decided to 'duke it out'. A little common sense can be applied here as well. Doesn't it seem silly that I can use my AoO to grapple or trip an opponent if I have a dagger in my hand (read: armed), but can not do this without the dagger in my hand? The way I see it, if an opportunity presents itself, and you can make some form of melee attack, then you can take your AoO. (The only time this is denied, is when two unarmed opponents are fighting.) ----- All that said, I believe that the sage said you have to be armed. (Am I the only moron who thinks he is wrong?) Also, in a DM poll I did sometime back, Monte Cook said the same thing. (That the character must be armed or considered armed (as with the Improved Unarmed Strike feat) to make AoOs.) Who am I to argue with the man who wrote the DMG? I'm nobody. Still, for what it is worth, I don't agree. --------- Golvelius |
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Mikhail |
AOO | ||
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Just from a common sense point of view, if a player can perform an attack action of any kind against an opponent, it makes sense that he threatens that space and can therefore take an AOO if it is made available.
I suppose technically you may decide that because someone doesn't technically qualify for an AOO they can't take one. That's fine. IMHO, anything that makes sense and streamlines combat, use it. I'd rather not spend too much time working out exactly what constitutes and AOO worthy weapon. For my money, if you threaten an area in any way, you can take an AOO. If, in taking an AOO, you generate an AOO, then that can be resolved too. Remembering the rules about multiple AOO's against a single opponent (you are limited to one), I don't think it will be a big problem. Worst case I can see, Player A tries to punch Player B. Player B uses the AOO to punch Player A, generating an AOO. Player A uses his AOO to punch. Since an AOO was already taken by B against A, another one can't be generated. So, Player A punches, then Player B, then Player A. Now it's player B's turn. He punches (generating no AOO, since they have already been settled.) Next round, they start all over again. Bottom line, Player A and B trade punches at the rate of 2 per round. Not a big deal. |
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Dreams of Lost Daylight |
Re: AOO | ||
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Mikhail, an unarmed person punching another unarmed person does not provoke an attack of opportunity.
"Your human mentality screams for vengeance and thrives on the violence that you say you can hardly endure."
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Mikhail |
AOO's | ||
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Exactly my point. Why worry about technicalities of the AOO generation rules? It only makes things messy. What if one of the two opponents is a monk? Does it generate and AOO then? How about if one is using brass knuckles? Is that enough of a weapon to count as a weapon? No? What about punching daggers? Maybe those should count, or a boxing glove, yeah, a boxing glove must count...
YUCK! Simple rule. If you are within range of someone who does something that would invoke an AOO, you get one, even if you are unarmed, tied up and blind. Now, what you do with it, well, that's up to you and your circumstance. Tied up as such, you're not going to be doing much at all. |
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Raidi Sovinfaile |
Re: AOO's | ||
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Okay.. let me see.
1. An unarmed person attacks someone unarmed. Since they are attacking someone who is not armed they do not provoke an AoO. 2. An unarmed person attacks someone armed. They provoke an AoO. 3. An armed(or unarmed) person moves through a space an unarmed person threatens. They provoke an AoO. So the only time you can't act upon an AoO while unarmed is that special case where someone attacks you while unarmed, which would normally provoke an AoO, but since you are unarmed you cannot act upon it, as per the unarmed attack rules. Yet you can act upon anyone provoking an AoO any other way. Does this make sense? Maybe it is becuz the other circumstances you aren't being directly attacked, but in the one-on-one melee you have to concentrate on defense too much, as you are unskilled at using your bare hands as weapons, to use the AoO. Ah well... |
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