Cleave baby cleave!

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dj2145	Cleave baby cleave!	Lead	[-]
Posts: 110 (06/11/02 11:53:20) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Tags : None Ok. I know this has been addressed in the errata and is fairly clear in the PHB but I have issue with it and need to know if it's just me or if others agree. Cleave, Great Cleave, Supreme Cleave. All standard actions per the errata but IMHO they should be full round actions. Here's why. A Fighter character or Human character can get the cleave feat at first level. This feat, against weaker monsters, assures him of two attacks per round assuming he hits. By fourth level, against weaker monsters, he can theoretically attack up to eight monsters in a round with Great Cleave. Maybe its just me but to make more than one attack in any other fashion requires a full move action. WTFO? Now I know that Cleave is based on being able to kill a monster and having monsters line up to hit but all tactics aside does anyone else think this feat is way over powered? I only say this as it forces/ coerces/ draws all fighter types down the Power Attack road based on the tremendous value in combat. At least if you make it a full round action you can explain how this guy can kill eight bubbas in one round. Give him a move equiv as well and its just downright scary. Any takers? Slap me down or back me up, I just want to hear your opinions on this. Jason On my signal, unleash hell.
chillwindhaven69	cleave	#1	[-]
Posts: 102 (06/11/02 12:02:41) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	You must remember that the character must drop the opponent first, so it only benefits you against low hit point creatures. Thus against hard creatures you may not even get the chance to use cleave. Also, the amount of times i have been surrounded by creatures and had the chance to cleave is once.......it failed.
Carter Lupus	Huh?	#2	[-]
Posts: 1430 (06/11/02 12:06:30) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	What has been errata'ed then?
Flyingdebris	Re: Huh?	#3	[-]
Posts: 4590 (06/11/02 12:48:58) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	well you could be surrounded by goblins, but they practically kill themselves Life's a lich and then you don't die...Words to unlive by
CelticDragonlord	Re: Huh?	#4	[-]
Posts: 1502 (06/11/02 12:51:16) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Nah, just get a +3 keen vorpal scimitar, and you're munching out the errata'd feat... we still play that it's a full attack action. RPG stands for Roleplaying Life... Role-Playin' G'Life.
CorpCool	Re: Huh?	#5	[-]
Posts: 92 (06/11/02 15:24:57) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Its usefullness decreases very much over time. When you reach lvl 10 or so its not really worth much, because you are dealing with monsters with many hitpoint and maybe damage reduction or your fighting bad spell casters, who aren't gonna let you get near them. Just because im paranoid, dosent mean the DM isen't out to get me!
ShandriLaMer	Re: Huh?	#6	[-]
Posts: 819 (06/11/02 15:29:22) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	It's still great for wading through minions, like a necro's skeleton or zombie army. That way your wizard can beat up on the baddie from a distance without worrying about concentration checks forced by weenies! It all goes back to my theory that the best armor for a spellcaster is full plate (with a decent fighter in it). Michelle, the eternal egg "Don't mess with me! I still have all my spells!"
dj2145	Re: Huh?	#7	[-]
Posts: 110 (06/11/02 15:51:05) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	I guess my point is that it detracts greatly from the other fighting styles, even at high level. My point... Same guy fighting three different ways. For simplicity sake let's give him the following stats... Ftr 10 Melee +15ish. Dmg: 1d8+12 (Enchanted longsword, Specialization, Str bonus, etc) Now, say he charges the fields of Banockburn with longsword and short sword in hand. At best he will get four attacks with level and dual weapon fighting but can only five foot shift, thus his range is limited. Same guy with just longsword taking three attacks. Again, full round action means baddies have to come to him. Now, same guy runs over and starts Great Cleaving. His mobility is good plus he drops eight of the evil Kings minions per round. Why bother with the other stuff? What's my point. I watch movies like Braveheart, Scorpion King, Gladiator, etc and the hero always seems to get in one spot and turns to cuisinart mode. Just seems more playable (and balancing) if you dont let a cleaver go running amok. Of course you can argue this both ways but when I watch the Fighter with Cleave drop eight skeles in one round while the Barbarian is still bashing the first one into the pavement it just seems to push the limit on balance. On my signal, unleash hell.
skylark	Re: Huh?	#8	[-]
Posts: 239 (06/11/02 16:04:52) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Odd. In two years of play we've never had anyone in our group complain about the Cleave tree being overpowered. Mainly these feats function to clear away 'mooks', especially critters with less than 3 HD. Making this feat require a full-attack action seems a bit knee-jerk, kind of how some DMs worry about Magic Missile or Harm spells. I do not think it needs to be fixed.
SilverHawk	Re: Huh?	#9	[-]
Posts: 769 (06/11/02 18:28:54) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Indeed skylark is right! you think cleave is bad ranger/fighter/rouges should be banned from exsistance. i mean please i can think of 100 ways to stop a cleaver and im not trying very hard. at 10th level if you are throwing miniosn at the party the enemy deserves to buy it at that level one good fireball does much worse than cleave! -------- D&D: Protecting the world from reality since 1974.
Pheld	Re:	#10	[-]
Posts: 222 (06/11/02 20:16:37) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Too bad your asinine example is wrong. If you had a level 10 fighter, why would anything he fought be dropped by a single blow from a longsword? Besides, when you get the the big baddy at the end who apparently was stupid enough to hire an army of level 0 commoners to defend him the cleave feat becomes useless while the fighter who duel wields still gets four attacks off. Movies are not factual. Duh. Why would anyone think that they depicted actual battle scenes, fighting styles, or historical accuracy? -Pheld Except for Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon, of course but that was kinda the point.
Andorax	Re: Re:	#11	[-]
Posts: 7052 (06/12/02 08:03:30) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	So, Pheld...you're saying that D&D depicts "actual battle scenes, fighting styles, or historical accuracy?" dj2145 brings up a very valid and legitimate point, in that PA-Cleve-GCleave is a powerful combat tree. But what he's not taking into account is that the other trees are equally powerful, dependant on how they're applied. PA-C-GC is by far and away the least subtle of the trees. It's best suited to the barbarian swinging a greataxe (or "Bix Ox with a Big Axe", as I like to call 'em). You wouldn't use the PA-C-GC tree with, say, an Elven Swashbuckler who uses Weapon Finesse-Rapier. As such, it's very good at what it's for...chopping down hordes of little things. Ambidex-2Weapon-Imp. 2Weapon is another tree, and against the specific purpose of the PA-C-GC tree, it's not as effective. No, a 10th level fighter with A-2W-I2W isn't going to cut down 8 Orcs a round the way the PA-C-GC fighter will....but the A-2W-I2W fighter will fare quite well against the single large opponent in ways that Cleave becomes useless. A-2W-I2W is a tree for having as many attacks as possible, all the time (rather than just against a horde of little foes) Dodge-Mobility-Spring is a third tree. Again, it's purpose is different. This one is great for the rogue that needs to get into sneak position, or for anyone with huge movement. Ever seen a Rogue/Monk leap from out of the shadows, run halfway across the courtyard, karate-chop someone in the neck, and finish their dash in a narrow ally on the opposite side, while the entire party looks around going "what the heck was that?" That's the D-M-SA tree at work. Different tree, different purpose, just as powerful for it's intended purpose. I won't even get into the variety of options opened up by Expertice and friends. This is the "most-subtle" tree, with a horde of options and tricks, most of which have nothing to do with "oh look, I did more damage than you did". So yes, PA-C-GC is a powerful tree...so are the others. I don't really feel there's anything wrong or broken with it, and it certainly doesn't need limited back. But the next time you're confronted with a problem that PA-C-GC won't solve, you might want to ask yourself if it really is that powerful. "Whadda ya mean, Orcs get levels too?!?"
Tordeques	Re: Re:	#12	[-]
Posts: 2953 (06/12/02 21:27:17) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	cleave and great cleave are very useful but require that you kill basically one creature per attack, which doesn't happen very often rapid shot is also quite powerful, for this allows characters to make two attacks per round starting at level 1... penalty of -2? big deal... decent tradeoff in my book and rapid shot only takes 1 prereq feat (point blank shot). now, i'm not saying that rapid shot IS over powered, i'm just saying that if feats require prereq feats to get, they should have a big pay off, and feats like rapid shot and cleave have that
Scott	Re: Re:	#13	[-]
Posts: 1796 (06/12/02 23:28:37) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	This tree of feats is only broken if subject to abuse. You need a situation where you face injured or lower hit dice creatures in order to be effective using these feats. You also need to be within reach of these targets. On top of that, you must hit and kill them. None of these things is guarenteed. With Rapid Shot, you're always going to get that extra shot when you make a full attack. The closest I've seen to this being abused is when a DM gives it to giants. In fact I used a giant with just the cleave feat to knock out one of my players. We had a player using a hat of disguise in order to present himself as the paladin's squire. The giant isn't stupid, and so squished him. Between an AOO and one critical hit, the poor rogue died on the spot. This allowed the giant to cleave the paladin. If you're the DM and want to change the feat(s), go right ahead. Just don't be surprised when your players complain. The monsters that use these feats, their challenge ratings may need to be adjusted. -----ScottI'm about as fluffy as a rock.
Andorax	Re: Re:	#14	[-]
Posts: 7052 (06/13/02 09:35:56) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Actually, Scott, many giants HAVE Cleave as-written. Personally, I like to swap it out for Large and In Charge. "Whadda ya mean, Orcs get levels too?!?"

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