Humanoid or Animal ?

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hugohossa	Humanoid or Animal ?	Lead	[-]
Posts: 53 (12/22/01 18:52:28) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Tags : None At our last game I really wanted to play an chimpanzees, so I started thinking what stats this thing would have... It is known that this apes are intelligent and can even learn to understand what we say (because of the anatomy they can never speak...) Because I did not want to play an other race reincarnated into an Chimpanzees (I would have kept Inti Wis and Cha stats) I made up this : -2 Str 6 Dex -4 Int -2 Cha Small Animal (maybe even humanoid) Chimpanzees get an 2 racial bonus on balance and escape artist and use the DEX modifier to climb. Speed 30ft Climb 20ft What do you think of it ?
Vengeance Talbert	Re: Humanoid or Animal ?	#1	[-]
Posts: 85 (12/22/01 20:09:11) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Give them a bonus to STR instead of a penalty. That's against the general rule for Small creatures, but the fact is that chimps are incredibly strong for their size. Lower the DEX bonus to compensate for that. Also note that they can't speak any language even if they can understand it, and the lack of opposable thumbs prevents them from using most tools and some weapons (No repeating crossbow for you, Bonzo!).
Drakey	Re: Humanoid or Animal ?	#2	[-]
Posts: 3119 (12/23/01 15:07:15) Local user Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	"An animal is a nonhumanoid creature, usually a vertebrate. . . . All animals have Intelligence scores of 1 or 2." --MM 5 I'd say that describes chimps pretty well. A creature with an Intelligence of 1 or 2 can still know both Common and one other language (if it is an automatic language), and those chimps that learn sign language are among the smartest samples of their species. "A humanoid usually has two arms, two legs, and one head, or a humanlike torso, arms, and a head. . . . Every humanoid creature also has a type modifier. Humanoids are proficient with all simple weapons and with any weapons mentioned in their entries." --MM 5 This, on the other hand, does not describe chimps. When was the last time you saw (or heard of) an untrained chimp on some nature documentary using, say, a light crossbow? Also, what subtype would they be? Goblinoid? Reptilian? Human? Dwarf? Elf? Gnoll? Gnome? Aquatic? You get the idea. Also, there are already rules for nonstandard races with negative modifiers to ability scores--see DMG pg. 23. As VT said, chimps are very strong--they can rip your arm off a la Chewbacca. You might consider a bonus to Charisma as well, on the basis of cuteness. Apes and baboons have higher-than-human-average (ie, >10) Str, Dex, Con, and Wis, and monkeys have Dex 15 and Wis 12, so you might want to take that into account as well. (MM 193, 19 .
Jahx	Re: Humanoid or Animal ?	#3	[-]
Posts: 3131 (12/23/01 16:02:51) Banned User Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Chimps do have an opposable thumbs as do most primates. If trained it's concievable they could use any weapon. Hell I've seen chimps trained to do karate by their owners. *This isn't a beer gut! It's the fuel-tank of and orc-killin' machine!!!*
Drakey	Re: Humanoid or Animal ?	#4	[-]
Posts: 3119 (12/23/01 16:31:47) Local user Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	But any untrained humanoid can use a simple weapon, an untrained animal (e.g., a wild chimpanzee) cannot. That training would be represented in 3E by taking the simple weapon proficiency feat.
hugohossa	Re: Humanoid or Animal ?	#5	[-]
Posts: 53 (12/24/01 05:42:37) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	"A humanoid usually has two arms, two legs, and one head, or a humanlike torso, arms, and a head. . . . Every humanoid creature also has a type modifier. Humanoids are proficient with all simple weapons and with any weapons mentioned in their entries." This, on the other hand, does not describe chimps. When was the last time you saw (or heard of) an UNTRAINED chimp on some nature documentary using, say, a light crossbow? by Drakey Don't you think that other races can use simple weapons because they TRAINED using them ? And I think U described the physic of an chimp pretty well. The question about the Str I have to agree with you... but I think the Int is not standard animallike... what do you think ?
hugohossa	re	#6	[-]
Posts: 53 (12/24/01 15:19:07) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	but what about the inti ?
Drakey	Re: re	#7	[-]
Posts: 3119 (12/24/01 15:34:15) Local user Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	When people describe chimps as intelligent, it's still animal-intelligent, not Einstein-intelligent. Sure, they're smarter than your dog, because they can do more than learn tricks. They can learn language, sort of--as long as the vocabulary's under 500 words or so. Most, if not all, humanoids in D&D are presumed to speak at least two languages (Common and their own). The smartest chimp, then, isn't nearly as smart as the dumbest person you know. For instance, going back to the crossbow example, if you or I saw one (even without having the gamer background) we could probably figure out its function in a matter of seconds and be able to defend ourselves with it. If a chimp saw it, s/he's not even going to understand that it's dangerous--most likely picking it up and putting it in his or her mouth like a little baby human might. In short, playing a chimpanzee is probably a bigger role-playing challenge than you might expect. Spend some time at the zoo, watching Discovery, or among infant/toddler children to get an idea of the amount of brain power you'd be working with. Yeesh. If I told my non-gamer friends I actually had to convince somebody a chimpanzee was an animal . . . yeesh.
Ricros Diamondsoul	Re: re	#8	[-]
Posts: 12 (12/28/01 12:00:53) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	*Quote:* The smartest chimp, then, isn't nearly as smart as the dumbest person you know. You know, Dumb is to speaking as Deaf is to hearing, therefore, a chimp IS more intelligent that the dumbest person you know!!!
Peisistratos	Re: Chimps as humanoids	#9	[-]
Posts: 4983 (12/28/01 12:54:03) Epic Level Dire Koala Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	I don't know... chimps are smarter than seem credited here. It's long been documented (at least as far back as Goodall in the 70's) that chimps wage tactical war, use guerrilla tactics when necessary, use tools, have developed cultural and social constructs that are unique regionally and transcend species. They're fascinating and not THAT far removed on an evolutionary level from us... I mean, really, depending on whether you believe in evolution, we've come a long way in the last 30,000 or so years. There would be some problems with cultural context, that Drakey mentioned, but Chimps are fully capable of learning complex, multi-stepped tasks, and can likely learn how to use complex weapons, up to and beyond crossbows and such. Maybe an "awakened" version of the chimp can be used as a sort of compromise. Something to give the chimp a leg up and help make up for the 30k yr technological head start that the rest of humanity has on it. It'd have to be somewhat naive socially, but smartish and very strong, coupled with an insatiable curiosity typical of the species could make up for it. Plus, it'd be a lot more fun to play a species that talks, than not. It'd get kind of boring role-playing a chimp mime (hey, there you go... chimp bard). -- Paid for by Half Humans for Human Rights: a non-profit organization.
Drakey	Re: Chimps as humanoids	#10	[-]
Posts: 3119 (12/28/01 14:51:11) Local user Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	I wasn't saying that chimps couldn't learn to use a crossbow (or other simple weapons), just that chimps in general don't know how to use them, or even what they are. Humanoids, in 3E, all know all simple weapons and how to use them. Chimpanzees do not. Of course, in nearly every edition of the game, there's been some sort of talking chimpanzee race, and if these used more complex tools and language than real world chimps, they might qualify as humanoid. Of course, they'd also have the Completely Cheeseball seal of ape-proval.
GSFB	Re: Chimps as humanoids	#11	[-]
Posts: 4873 (12/28/01 15:54:11) Local user Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	I wouldn't classify a chimp as small unless it was young or a neutered female. Most of the "small" chimps you see on TV shows are there to be cute or as comic relief... they are chosen for their looks and are not representative of chimps as a whole. an adult male chimp, like you would only see in the wild, in the zoo, or on a nature show, is about as heavy as a human male. they are shorter, but stockier. maybe comparable to a D&D Dwarf? I would give them a massive bonus to strength and constitution. an adult male chimp can easily pick up a human and throw him across the cage like a rag doll, and is VERY hard to subdue by force. no dex mod... they DO have more skill at things like hopping from branch to branch, but are less able to manipulate things with their hands... these are both aspects of dex and would cancel out. give a big penalty to INT... even the brightest chimps in captivity haven't been taught to read books or type on keyboard. chimps in the wild have never developed tools beyond sticks and rocks, nor have they made fire. I wouldn't touch wisdom or charisma. A chimp is wise enough to recognize danger in the wild, is capable of emotion, etc. the normal 3-18 range seems appropriate for wis. cha is hard to guage... an angry adult male can be one of the most intimidating things in nature, but I can't imagine a chimp having an idea of self-esteem, personal magnetism, etc. again, the normal 3-18 range seems appropriate. As for things like proficiencies and class levels... well, in a real life world there is no question that a chimp would never be able to master all martial weapons, all armors, etc. but in a fantasy setting, anything goes... I would limit the chimps ability to advance with class levels unless it had some magical boost, like an awaken spell. once magic enters the picture, anything is possible. you see, once you get a post total up into the multi-thousands, at some point the counter rolls over...
Shadow P Monkey	Re: Chimps as humanoids	#12	[-]
Posts: 2906 (12/28/01 19:27:09) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Ahhh...a monkey lover. I'm running a PBP where a player is playing a spider monkey rogue. Quite different from a chimp though. I make up stats for all kinds of primates before he finally decided to choose the spider monkey, and chimp was among them. I wouldn't worry too much about the inability to speak even if taught...unless you don't mind such a severe handicap of communication in the game. The only hinderance I placed was that monkies had to spend skill points to speak any language. Well that and some severe INT penalties. I think I had chimps at -6. I didn't worry too much about weapon profeciencies either. Any such animal who becomes a PC is a very special case. Such animals are even more special than familiar type animals...more special than a paladin's mount. An animal that starts taking PC classes...any classes shows far above animal intelligence. If you're gonna allow a chimp rogue, then you might as well allow him to use weapons as a rogue(especially if they can pick a lock or disarm a trap). If you're gonna allow a chimp fighter, you might as well allow him to use weapons like a fighter(why be a fighter if not?). If you adhere too much to real life chimps, then you're going to be playing a chimp that has no PC classes, advances slowly if at all in levels/HD, and is only motivated by survival rather than the greater good, fame and fortune, or thrill of adventure. I just deem that most primates have no favored class, and are subject to multiclassing penalties no matter what. I made an exception for the spider monkey, and it's favored class is of course the rogue...but I seriously doubt that he'll be picking up any other classes anyway since he won't be very good at anything else. Here (as far as I can remember) are the stats I gave the chimp. (no STR bonus for both balance, and because even though chimps are generally stronger than humans, I doubt any chimp has ever been as strong as the strongest human) +4 DEX +2 CON -6 INT -2 CHA(because of flinging poo, and eating bugs. perhaps these are charismatic qualities among their own kind, but in a human/demi-human dominated society it just doesn't jive) Racial bonuses of +6 to climb and jump, +4 to hide and move silent, and +2 to escape artist. Cannot speak or understand any languages without spending skill points in speak language. No favored classes. I'm a little teapot,Short and stout,Here is my handle,Here is my...GET YOUR HANDS OFF OF THAT!!!
Drakey	Re: Humanoid or Animal ?	#13	[-]
Posts: 3119 (12/30/01 16:51:14) Local user Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	I want a character that has a charisma penalty for flinging poo! Can it work like the bestial/monstrous traits in the 2E Complete Book of Humanoids? So that if I fail a roll I can't help doing it? Please? Oh, please? Oh, what a silly game we play.
magfrump	Re: Humanoid or Animal ?	#14	[-]
Posts: 462 (12/30/01 17:04:11) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	I'd say just give em an int of 3, and not generally able to speak langs, and restrict the classes (no brd, clr, pal, sor, wiz) and give a small (+2) str bonus, make it -4 cha, and keep the rest. MY CHIMP FLINGS MORE $H!# THAN YOURS! Note: all statements may be voided if something important happens. Like someone sneezing.P.S., I'm the one on the right with the rubber chicken. Which has a pension plan.
Shadow P Monkey	Re: Humanoid or Animal ?	#15	[-]
Posts: 2906 (12/31/01 19:09:13) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Yes Drakey...you can play that character. Roll a Will save DC 20 to avoid fliging. You can also have automatic weapon focus and specializtion in poo flinging. Normally the damage is 1d4 charisma damage, but since you are specialized you do 1d4+2 charisma damage with your poo because you know just where to hit them to make them less charsmatic. When they are speaking you can hit them right in the mouth to make their breath smell bad as well as a bit of splatter around their mouth so people know what they've been eating. I'm a little teapot,Short and stout,Here is my handle,Here is my...GET YOUR HANDS OFF OF THAT!!!
Unregistered(d)	Unknown	#16	[-]
Posts: 0 (12/31/04 14:00:00) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	(This post is missing and can not be restored)

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