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why limit domains?

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why limit domains?

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Posts: 4873

(06/07/02 14:20:58)

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so say you are a "godless" cleric (which is bad enough, but it's in the rules). you can choose any domains. so now say you are a cleric of god XYZ. god XYZ has the domains "good, law, sun, and healing" in his portfolio. so why are you limited to these four domains? a godless cleric could choose any two, but you are limited to two of these four--basically punishment for having faith and playing a cleric the way he is supposed to be played.

I propose dropping godless clerics. but then the atheists will moan, so we can't do that. So I propose letting all clerics choose from all domains, excepting only those that are OPPOSITE the gods' portfolio (like no clerics of XYZ taking chaos and evil domains).

thoughts?

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why limit domains?

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Posts: 239

(06/07/02 15:50:51)

I'm not too sure about that, GSFB. Then clerics serving a particular diety loose the particular flavor they currently enjoy. I do not think that godless clerics and godly clerics belong in the same game.

Thankfully we play in the Realms and also the Scarred Lands, both of which require clerics to have a god.

Perhaps a godless cleric should serve a well-defined philosophy that substitutes for all practical purposes as a diety, except with no persona behind it.

For an example of this, see The Academy in 'Deities and Demigods'.

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Re: why limit domains?

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Posts: 104

(06/07/02 17:19:01)

I like the idea and this is part of the reason that I never play a cleric with a god. I want the flexibility to choose domains without being limited by a god.

Also I do not like the idea that clerics must be tied to some god.

So I like the idea, all in all.


T'olar J'harn J'harn's Place ICQ: 10594649		Love What you do!!! The sooner you do, The better it gets.

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Re: why limit domains?

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Posts: 1627

(06/07/02 17:24:49)

Yeah, I don't like godless clerics. So, I'd say I'd go with one of three options, either:

A - Get rid of 'em- go ahead and whine, atheists, what's giving them these powers, if they don't have a god? Why are you trying to force *your* religious beliefs onto *my* fantasy world? No offense meant to any atheist, unless you're a whiner. Then I mean it.

B - Restrict the domains a godless cleric can get - Why should a godless cleric take Lawful, Good, War, and Destruction? Just hand 'em the free domain Twinkery- special power, your PC has the DM smite them at creation. Seriously, though, you could sort of arrange them into groupings a godless cleric can choose, I don't have my PHB so I can't give you my suggestions, but I'm sure you can work it out. Things like Law and Knowledge, Good and Healing, Evil and Death. Et cetera.

C - Give a benefit to clerics who do claim allegience to a god - This one is up to you, but in my game, clerics can occasionally pray to their deity for guidance. Possibly take away spells like Lesser Planar Ally, which I've always found a bit odd for a godless cleric. A being sharing a philosophical alignment? What, the cleric posts a request on some cosmic bulleitin board? This does weaken a godless cleric, but wasn't that the point?

If you're talking straight numbers, more vampires aren't goth than are. Most vampires follow mortal trends, and the whole goth scene isn't the rage it used to be. Granted, it is easy to feed and to pass relatively unchallenged among the goths if you legitimately do look dead. If I was a hunter, though, I'd board up a gothic nightclub, burn it to the ground and let God sort 'em out.
-V:tM FAQ

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Re: why limit domains?

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Posts: 1625

(06/07/02 20:37:59)

To all those people saying that clerics with gods are at a disadvantage, I think you're missing the most obvious advantage of having a god on your side - YOU HAVE A GOD ON YOUR SIDE!

Will I give up a little domain versatility in exchange for the ability to be able to call upon the 'Big Guy' when I'm in trouble? HELL, YEAH!!!

I'd say that clerics WITHOUT gods are disadvantaged.

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Re: why limit domains?

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Posts: 7848

(06/07/02 22:24:58)

Rules Lawyer, Esq.

Must ... control urge ... to bash clerics ....
overpowered ...

darken

Light, is the lack of darkness.

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Re: why limit domains?

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Posts: 7150

(06/07/02 22:47:59)

ADHD Teacher

i too would rule 0 that you have to pick a god before i would rule 0 limiting, unlimiting, or modifying domains.

Quote:
i like the flexibility to choose domains without being limited by a god.

that is all well, but (in my opinion)you lose a lot of flavor in your character. where is your temple? who do you serve? how do you get your power?

i'm not trying to start ANOTHER clerical debate by the way. just trying to make my point as to what I would do before changing domain rules.

taylor

It was created to answer that age old question that has been haunting man for all time... What would happen if you gave a Yo-Yo to a flock of flamingos?

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An atheist's viewpoint

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Posts: 2825

(06/07/02 23:08:48)

Great Wyrm

I'm an atheist, and I require clerics in my campaigns to have a patron deity. Atheistic clerics just don't make sense to me, although I suppose if you can have wizards, you could have clerics who learned how to cast clerical spells without divine help.

As for domains, it seems these are designed to give flavor to the worship of the deities, allowing each cleric to choose from among different interpretations of the cult. In my campaign there are so many gods to choose from that there should not be a problem finding some who offers any pair of domains you would like. ("You want Love and Destruction? We can arrange that...")

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Re: An atheist's viewpoint

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Posts: 3139

(06/08/02 07:54:28)

Yeah...I prefer to just disallow godless clerics altogether. So...like FR, my campaign does not allow clerics without dieties.

Like some others said, I too think that having a god really gives you a lot more flavor. If mean...not only is there a diety...there's also your religion...ways to act, scriptures, songs, etc...

-Zach
The Kor'nui Homepage
AIM: FraggingDragon, ZOTBahamut
Email: Shinji_I@Tokyo-3.com

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Re: An atheist's viewpoint

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Posts: 7150

(06/08/02 09:20:00)

ADHD Teacher

the whole athiest argument (In my opinion) is pointless.

what you are in real life has no bearing on your character in DnD. you are an atheist, great. your character who is a cleric needs a god.

you are a vegetarian in real life. great. your PC doesn't have to be.

you are against killing (hunting, war, etc.) in real life. great. your pc doesn't have to be.

you are not your PC

taylor

It was created to answer that age old question that has been haunting man for all time... What would happen if you gave a Yo-Yo to a flock of flamingos?

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Re: An atheist's viewpoint

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Posts: 1613

(06/08/02 10:36:17)

This is easily solved GSFB.

Just assign all domains with a relevant alignment.

Like I did with the spirits with the Meteo monk.

But instead of just making them take longer to junction forbid clerics from choosing domains more than 1 alignment increment away.

'And when the chill began to turn to frost... that was when he realised he was having a bad case of indigestion...'

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Re: An atheist's viewpoint

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Posts: 819

(06/08/02 10:49:39)

An idea for DMs regarding domains,

It mentions in the PHB about how different sects worshiping the same god are reflected in different domain choices. For instance, a church that reflects the domains of Good and Healing would have a much different outlook than one that espouses Strength and Sun, though the god is the same. The first is probably much more pacifist but popular with commoners, the latter militant and powerful, perhaps with more noble connections. Then there are other combinations of those four domains.

Thus, when you've run out of big baddies to throw at your parties, you could have conflicts between denominations to spice up your PC cleric's life. After all, you may disagree with your brothers/sisters in the god's service, but lethal force is not recommended. How can the party use its talents/skills (hello, Diplomacy) to diffuse a church schism? It's been played out in history many a time. Now there's real opportunity for character development when you aren't sure if there really is a "bad guy".

Michelle, the eternal egg

"Don't mess with me! I still have all my spells!"

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Re: An atheist's viewpoint

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Posts: 3139

(06/08/02 11:21:02)

Just to give an example of Sir's argument...

My father used to play D&D with a Catholic priest...the priest always played these bloodthirsty dwarves who loved to slaughter orcs.

-Zach
The Kor'nui Homepage
AIM: FraggingDragon, ZOTBahamut
Email: ToupsZ@Southwestern.EDU

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Re: An atheist's viewpoint

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Posts: 120

(06/08/02 15:24:05)

Sounds just like my characters (though I am not a priest).

I allow godless clerics in my world. I never understood why people get so riled up over it. While they can choose any two domains they want, they must still adhere to a system of beliefs (as ethos clerics derive their power from their beliefs). So, you just make sure they play accordingly. It is much harder to play an ethos cleric in my campaign because you always have to reconcile your actions with your domains and alignment.

**Final Words, before the battle with Demogorgon."My life does not matter. It was given to me to better the lives of my people. Please give the Pureblade to my son so that he may finish what I start here today."**

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Re: An atheist's viewpoint

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Posts: 1625

(06/08/02 20:17:26)

I would allow godless clerics in my campaign. However, they'd have a hard time casting spells.

Clerics with gods would have their powers given to them by their patron deity. A cleric without a god is essentilly 'stealing' some of that divine power from other clerics whenever he/she casta a spell. It'd be sorta like a modern day computer hacker - the godless cleric is tapping into a source of energy and trying to grab some for his/her self without other gods noticing. If the other gods DO notice, who knows what the consequences might be?

Gods that approve of thievery (eg. Olliddamara) might not care

Gods with the same domains as the cleric might approve of it (the cause justifies the means)

All th other gods would have a field day punishing the cleric.
- Removing the cleric's spellcasting ability
- Cursing the cleric
- Sending minions after the cleric
- turning the cleric into something that isn't all that nice
The list is endless.

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Atheistic Adepts

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Posts: 2825

(06/08/02 20:58:32)

Great Wyrm

I'm thinking of beefing up the Adept class from the DMG so that it is equal in power to the core classes. Then I can allow an atheistic adept to intercede with the spirits for her spells, but she does not have to worship any of the gods because she is dealing with the lesser spirits.

You could use the same argument to justify atheistic clerics (he is interceding with lesser spirits), but in truth the adept class has always bothered me, and I think it makes sense to have the Adept as a divine spellcaster who invokes lesser spirits, instead of having the adept as just a weak spellcaster. If I want a weak spellcaster, I'll just make a low level wizard or cleric.

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Re: An atheist's viewpoint

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Posts: 93

(06/08/02 21:04:59)

Well if a godless clieric fights one with one... the one with a diety would win he/she could summon there diety with prayer beads. And with know diety they cant contect them. That hurt the ally spells so they do have disadvantages. They probly are a bunch of combinations with all the dietys so its not much of a disadvantege really.

Warning do not cross the tarrasque and infernal creatures,

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Re: An atheist's viewpoint

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Posts: 3131

(06/08/02 23:52:58)

Banned User

For godless clerics I'd just take into account alignment and PC personality and assign them domains I think they would have. Sounds like a fair trade off to me, give up having to follow a relgious dogma but also forfeit right to choose domains.

Sure, I pee when I'm in the shower but at least you know I washed my hands.

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Re: An atheist's viewpoint

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Posts: 3519

(06/09/02 18:36:02)

Local user

I think that if someone wants to play a godless cleric, they're missing the point. Playing a godless cleric is like playing a PC immune to fear in a Raveloft game. The purpose of a cleric is to spread his/her god's messege, like the purpose of Ravenloft is to freak the crap out to people. It honestly can't be that much of a big deal for someone to create a background for a PC who worships a god. Hell, if they just want to throw domains together, let them make up their own god. They don't even have to be all the committed to spreading their faith. If they don't want to worship a god, then they have no business being a cleric.

***When you've got nothing, you've got nothing to lose.

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Re: An atheist's viewpoint

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Posts: 482

(06/10/02 02:07:41)

I allow godless clerics in my Realms campaign.

Where do godless clerics get their magic from?

In my campaign - the gods. A cleric chooses Law and Retribution for domains. He devotes his life to promoting justice in the world. He prays for justice and law. Tyr notices that this individual is giving his life to fight for his ideals so gives him spells. Tyr is justice, he will help any and all to further his ideals.

It doesn't matter that he doesn't believe in Tyr; his faith in the ideals that he fights for is enough for Tyr. Tyr is justice and justice is Tyr. The priest fights for justice so justice gives him power.

Never play leap-frog with a unicorn.

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Re: An atheist's viewpoint

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Posts: 77

(06/10/02 04:51:08)

We have a godless dwarven cleric in my campaign, and I basically go by this approach:

A godless cleric is not as much without god, as he is with them all. The way I see it, the godless cleric follows faith...not one particular faith, but faith in general. If he comes to a temple of Heironeous he will find shelter there, should he come to a temple of Boccob, he will find shelter there.
If I ever catch a godless cleric in my campaign who draws on divine power without having the divine part, then he'd be bitchslapped and hung from a tree on the village square.

As long as the cleric is in someway in contact with divinity, wether it be a certain god, or gods in general, I'm allowing it

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