why limit domains?

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paulpage	Re: An atheist's viewpoint	#21	[-]
Posts: 857 (06/10/02 05:17:15) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Well if I were to allow godless clerics, then I'd just assign the Law, Chaos, Good and Evil domains to the PC as per their alignment, if the character has a neutral portion they'd loose out on a domain and a true neutral godless cleric would have no domains at all. The justification for this would be that it takes strength of belief for a godless cleric to cast spells and neutral most often indicates a lack of conviction, not wanting to go to one of the extremes. If a character wants to be a true neutral cleric, play a druid! Of course, since I run a Realms campaign, I wouldn't allow a godless cleric as Faiths and Pantheons states that it takes a being with Divine Rank 1+ to grant spells to their followers. As for a god granting spells to PC's who don't actually believe in it, well IMO the god wouldn't waste the energy for no return since the Realms gods rely totally on the number and frevour of their worshipers for power.
GSFB	Re: An atheist's viewpoint	#22	[-]
Posts: 4873 (06/10/02 11:57:19) Local user Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	well everyone is talking about dealing with godless clerics, but what I hoped to discuss was the concept of getting rid of the domain restrictions... due to the EZ-board screw up, you must add 2,201 to the post total for an accurate count.
skylark	Re: An atheist's viewpoint	#23	[-]
Posts: 239 (06/10/02 12:05:37) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Go ahead GSFB, tell us what you are thinking of exactly...I'd be interested in hearing what you have to say.
J Cauchi	Re: An atheist's viewpoint	#24	[-]
Posts: 1613 (06/10/02 12:11:48) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Yeah GSFB. You may have a crock of gold's worth of an idea in your head but it's worth less than a copper if it never gets out (sorry, stuck in leprechaun mode ) 'And when the chill began to turn to frost... that was when he realised he was having a bad case of indigestion...'
Sephiroth Yagyu	Re: An atheist's viewpoint	#25	[-]
Posts: 1413 (06/10/02 14:47:18) Psychotic Scot Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Well, technially, godless clerics aren't godless. They just don't have a patron deity...People worship all gods, they just worship one over others. Like Farmer John primarily worships Agriculture god. Well, when he goes to fix his plow, Craftsman god is the one he prays to. ...And so the Paladins were robbed of their money, pants, and dignity, proving once again that good is dumb.
Elodius	Re: An atheist's viewpoint	#26	[-]
Posts: 154 (06/10/02 16:57:28) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	I'd say keep the domain restrictions, lest ye invite horrid abuse and power gaming. In example, several friends and I recently determined that a cleric with the wind and water domains would not only have really, really sweet domain spells, but be able to turn or rebuke an incredible number of critters from the MM, basically anything with an elemental tag, including any dragons they meet whose HD aren't beyond them. I'd say it'd be much easier to deal with the godless clerics, or disallow them. Interestingly, another possible solution might be found in Hackmaster, which differentiates exactly where different levels of spells for clerics come from, so that while lower level spells are really internally powered, granting mid level spells might require the attention of a celestial servant, and spells like miracle would require the cleric to do some explaining to the deity himself, as he's the one who has to provide the juice for the spell. I'd probably hold to something similar, if a player wants to just take a couple of levels as a godless cleric, fine, but if he wants to be able to use really, really powerful divine power, he better have someone to ask for it. Elodius 24th Level Paladin of BrellMadcap of ValorOrder of the Cuddly Dwarf
psetzer	Re: An atheist's viewpoint	#27	[-]
Posts: 946 (06/10/02 18:28:46) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Why would there be an athiest in a fantasy world, this athiest would wonder. Here, I don't really have anything that says God exists, nor do I have anything that says He doesn't. I don't see any problems with him not existing that are any more major than the omnipotence-omnibenevolence-Then-why-does-evil-exist problem. I'm not an athiest because I'm hostile to the idea of God existing, I am because I don't really see good enough evidence (In my eyes, that is) to support the existence of God. In a fantasy world, on the other hand, people get lopped off limbs put back on by clerics (Regeneration), raised from the dead (Raise Dead), storms calmed (Control Weather), people smited (Flame Strike), killed with a word (Power Word Kill), and all sorts of other fantastic things. Deities walk around and put the smack down on everything that annoys them, and if there's any spot that doesn't believe in them or know of their existence then a god will play a page from the Black and White playbook and throw a flaming boulder into their creche. The only athiests would be akin to people who believe that there is no gravity, i.e. completely delusional, and/or just trying to be difficult. This means that playing a deity-centered cleric doesn't really bother me, as I don't really think Pelor exists, but hey, the Sun domain's granted power is really nice. PH33R /\/\3!!!!!!!!?!?!?!(or don't and forget I said anything)-- Paul
Raidi Sovinfaile	Why there are athiests...	#28	[-]
Posts: 1969 (06/10/02 20:40:27) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	The deal with clerics is that it totally depends on your campaign! The campaign world I made had a whole history behind magic. It was a lot like the FRCS idea of magic (an intangible web of power covering everything). This power can alter the current reality, allowing the multitude of DnD ideas that are explained away with the ol' "it's magic" saying. Quick history: - In the beginning, use of magic was difficult to understand and thus used by shaman-like figures in societies, mostly by stumbling into a way of using it. - Gods (beings from extraplanar dimensions) discovered this realm and finally decided the mortals were advanced enough to make themselves known. For furthering thier own purposes in this realm they "granted" paths to this magical power to any mortal willing. - With advanced knowledge came wizardry, and eventually psionics, aswell as a multitude of other magical abilities or methods. Basically, anything that broke our normal rules of reality was done through the tapping into this "magic". Whether by clerical praying, arcane studying, or even a monk's inner contemplation. The idea of an atheist (in this sense, one NOT following a God) casting clerical spells is not that far fetched. They simply have found a way to "tap into" the magical power around them.. the paths brought out from their beliefs (ethos). As for GSFB's original problem with Domains... My players want to have fun. If they have an idea for cleric that follows specific domains (yes like Evil and Sun, or even Evil and Good), I will go as far as create a new deity for them. If they don't want a God but have an ethos they follow instead, then what is the difference? If they have a cool idea for a cleric they want to play, I'm willing to write it into the campaign for them.
Utgardloki	Atheists in D&D.	#29	[-]
Posts: 2825 (06/10/02 21:17:28) Great Wyrm Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	I think most D&D characters who are atheists are not necessarily those who do not believe in the gods, but those who don't feel the gods have anything to offer to them. I have a chaotic neutral half-orc fighter who feels that way: "What have the gods ever done for me?" I also think that "atheistic" divine spellcasters would be those who are not devoted to any particular deity, but would probably be friendly towards those of similar alignment. Atheistic paladins, druids, rangers, and adepts could deal with lesser spirits that are not powerful enough to be considered gods. Adepts could deal with various spirits up to the quasi-demigod level. Druids and rangers could deal with the spirits of natural things. Paladins could deal with their own heroic spirit. After all, if wizards can cast spells with their own power, why not paladins? In my campaign I require a deity to sponsor a cleric, but if atheistic clerics were allowed to have any domain, then I think non-atheistic clerics should also be allowed to have any domain, perhaps restricted by alignment. (e.g., perhaps Healing can only be granted to good clerics or worshippers of good deities). After all, if a cleric can get the Healing domain without worshipping a god, then there is really no reason why a cleric who worships Kord can't have the Healing domain. She'd just be probably the only cleric in the kingdom who worships Kord and has the Healing domain. In my campaign, the deities need to earn their domains. The more domains they have, the more powerful they are. Thus ambitious deities may have five or eight domains, while younger or more laid back deities will only have three. I've even created a cleric character around the concept that her deity currently has the War domain and wants the Protection domain, so the deity told her to take War and sends her out to protect people.
GSFB	Re: Atheists in D&D.	#30	[-]
Posts: 4873 (06/11/02 14:50:27) Local user Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	also the presence of wizards could put a damper on religion... why need a "god" to explain things when a wizard can do it the godless way? need to raise the dead? call a wizard. as long as he is high enough level (and willing), raising the dead is not a problem. when gods walk the earth, how can a commoner tell that they are "divine" and not just really high-level PCs? a party of level 20 PCs walking into a common town would (if they wanted to be flashy) be seen no differently from the pantheon of deities come to visit. back to what I was talking about originally... I thought I had it spelled out well enough. a cleric who goes "godless" can choose from all domains. therefore, a cleric with a patron deity should be able to choose from all domains, just excluding conflicting ones... like no clerics of Pelor taking the Evil domain, for instance. and this is not something I think everyone should do. I would rather see no godless clerics, because that just goes against the grain for me. but when a DM will allow player A to go godless and pick and choose domains for munch power, the DM should allow player B who follows a deity and role plays the part to share the same power level. due to the EZ-board screw up, you must add 2,201 to the post total for an accurate count.
skylark	Re: Atheists in D&D.	#31	[-]
Posts: 239 (06/11/02 16:10:28) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Here, here! [Goes and ties up godless clerics to posts in center of town square] "In the name of Mighty Kossuth, cleanse this village of the stain of the faithless!" [A rightious pillar of holy fire descends and leaves behind only a small, greasy patch on the ground. Not even a wisp of smoke] "Let the godless walk Oerth; they know their fate if they step onto Aber-Toril."
Raidi Sovinfaile	Re: Atheists in D&D.	#32	[-]
Posts: 1969 (06/11/02 17:23:33) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Well... my point was that someone who wishes to follow a God and wants a specific set of Domains, chooses a God that HAS those domains. If there isn't a combination of Domains for the Gods that exist, I as the DM usually create a lesser God with that combination for the PC. Clerics with out any God would also include things like.. shamans.. voodooists.. things like that. Their magic is just as real, but they do not have an extraplanar force aiding them. One more thing, do you force Monks to choose a God? If not, then how do they do these often magical acts? If they can perform these magical abilities in your world.. is it that hard to believe a Godless cleric could do more? Do druids in your world HAVE to choose a God aswell? You don't have to allow these things in your campaign.. you are the DM after all. But I'm just trying to show how these things can be just as believable as the rest of DnD.
skylark	Re: Atheists in D&D.	#33	[-]
Posts: 239 (06/11/02 19:03:25) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	The power of the monk comes from within. It almost verges on psionics. Druids really should have a deity. Scarred Lands does this well by having the Titans, who are tied to the land itself, bestow druidic powers, and having the Gods, who are tied to worshippers, bestow clerical and paladin powers. In the Realms the distinction is less clear, unfortunately IMO. Regardless, I really dislike the whole godless aspect of things. Even shamens and voodoo priests have gods, they just tend to worship a pantheon of smaller deities, and that should still dictate domain choices to a large degree. A godless shaman is likely a sorcerer. Godless clerics are pure cheese.
psetzer	Re: Atheists in D&D.	#34	[-]
Posts: 946 (06/11/02 19:47:12) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	>>also the presence of wizards could put a damper on religion... why need a "god" to explain things when a wizard can do it the godless way? need to raise the dead? call a wizard. as long as he is high enough level (and willing), raising the dead is not a problem. when gods walk the earth, how can a commoner tell that they are "divine" and not just really high-level PCs? a party of level 20 PCs walking into a common town would (if they wanted to be flashy) be seen no differently from the pantheon of deities come to visit. Gods have the advantage that they can outdo any human spell without any effort. The Old Testament shows this, as every time a wizard does something magical, God then shows him up, reminding everyone who is on top. Flooding the entire known world shows about what kind of stuff God did compared to wizards making a stick into a snake. People would know who was mortal and who was divine. PH33R /\/\3!!!!!!!!?!?!?!(or don't and forget I said anything)-- Paul
Utgardloki	Or they might not know	#35	[-]
Posts: 2825 (06/11/02 20:18:32) Great Wyrm Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	The whole Harry Potter controversy occurs because some people think that because Harry Potter can fly on a broomstick, that means he must be making bargains with the Devil. Now most American citizens are smarter than that (despite what non-Americans might think:-)) However, in more primitive times people thought that with great power or great knowledge, that meant somebody was in cahoots with some supernatural personage. This could occur in a role player game where wizards are accused of making deals with the devils, and have to avoid superstitious townspeople. I've never put any PC wizards in this situation, but anything can happen
GSFB	Re: Or they might not know	#36	[-]
Posts: 4873 (06/11/02 22:51:35) Local user Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	The Old Testament is not a valid comparison to wizards versus deities in D&D. You are talking about radically different concepts. I don't want to go there. Jack Chic might be reading this. Turning sticks to snakes a-la the priests of Pharoah is nothing compared to a level 20 wizard with spells like Wish, Meteor Swarm, etc., at his disposal. And you can't convince me that to a level 1 commoner with 10's for INT and WIS, a level 20 Meteor Swarm is any less intimidating that a deity's Divine Blast or whatever it's called. I agree that players making clerics should choose deities to fit the domains they want. The problem is the godless clerics can just pick domains. Other than requiring clerics to have a god, what can be done to make this equal? Oh, and why do people keep thinking that monks are religious? These are based on Oriental-style Shaolin Kung-Fu monks, not the friars copying Bibles in the abbey. due to the EZ-board screw up, you must add 2,201 to the post total for an accurate count.
Metheus	Levels of divinity	#37	[-]
Posts: 403 (06/12/02 06:25:12) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Perhaps revisiting 1st edition (that is AD&D) could provide an acceptable answer. In 1st edition, the maximum level of available clerical spells depended on the power from which the cleric drew them. A cleric worshipping a greater god had access to all levels of spells (class level permitting). A cleric worshipping a lesser god did not have access to the highest level of spells, and those worshipping demigods could not obtain spells of the two highest levels. This is how I remember it at least. Perhaps godless clerics should be limited to a maximum of 8th level spells. It does not hinder much in the beginning, but munchkins like to think ahead (and they tend to be the godless type). Metheus. .
ShandriLaMer	Re: why limit domains?	#38	[-]
Posts: 819 (06/12/02 08:25:18) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	So exactly what combinations of domains sparked this whole thing in the first place? At least in FR, it seems like you can find just about any two domains you want in some pantheon representative. Maybe it's a little harder in Greyhawk, but I haven't seen any broken combos of domains there either. Let me know what these munchkins are seeing that I'm missing! Michelle, the eternal egg "Don't mess with me! I still have all my spells!"
Raidi Sovinfaile	Re: why limit domains?	#39	[-]
Posts: 1969 (06/12/02 12:59:38) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	If you have a problem with a godless cleric that is up to you. My point was that it is not that farfetched an idea, since magic is magic, even the gods use the magical forces. And you argument that a wizard would appear godlike. Well of course he would to an uncivilised society. However, there are a LOT of things low level clerics can do that a wizard cannot do until he is much much higher level. You are going to see a lot of clerics running around presenting their beliefs/ethos than you are wizards running around pretending to be gods. Anyways.. this strays from the point of this thread. If you want to limit domains or disallow godless clerics, then go right ahead! I'm just saying it's just as believable as anything else in DnD. And btw, if you ever read the book on shamans in 2nd ed, or most other shaman related info on the net.. they believe in "the spirit world", not deities. And in fact the 2e handbook on shamans says outright that their power comes from tapping the magical forces through their "belief" in the spirits. They say the spirit world doesn't really exist and that they simply give a face to their powers. This is exactly what a godless cleric class would be like. They don't have a god to aid them, however they cast clerical spells due to their "beleifs". Anyways... it's all up to the DM what happens anyways, I just don't see the need to unrestrict Domains... they are there becuz that's what fully represents the God. Choose a different god if you dont want those domains.
GSFB	Re: why limit domains?	#40	[-]
Posts: 4873 (06/12/02 14:25:47) Local user Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	well for the record, what got me on this was plain old fashioned powergaming. in the current campaign, we had a wizard. we also had two players who were role-playing in such a way as to eventually multi-class into clerics. we chose Tymora and Eilistrae and role played accordingly. then the wizard bit it, and that player insisted on rejoining as a monk with his next PC. we had no arcane casters. in a fit of generosity, the DM said we could go ahead and become clerics (since we had been working with temples and everything already) and take magic as a domain, letting us at least use a few wands that we found. since a godless cleric could have chosen magic as a domain, she relunctantly decided that Tymora and Eilistrae wouldn't object too much. I know this is blatant munchkin powergaming, but it was better than scrapping another PC just so one of us could add some needed arcane power. due to the EZ-board screw up, you must add 2,201 to the post total for an accurate count.

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