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Psionics Munchy??

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Posts: 38

(01/22/02 17:31:32)

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Just curious as to what you think. Im in a game with a second level rogue/ four level psion, and I have heard comments that they are munchy (nevermind the 26 hps). Im just curious if any of you who know the system well can tell me your opinions on whether psions are a munchy class.

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Re: Psionics Munchy??

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Posts: 246

(01/22/02 20:59:57)

Munchy? I don't think so at all. Consider that when you get 3rd level powers (psion 6), sorcerers and wizards have 3rd level spells. If you have 16 in your primary ability, then you get 24 power points/day. I suppose your most damaging spell would be 'cone of sound', and you can do that 4 times per day (5d6 damage). A sorcerer with 16 cha can fireball 4 times per day, and then have level 0, 1, and 2 spells available. You can manifest a 2nd and 1st level spell, and 0 level powers.

So that being said, Psions are weakened because:
1) no scaling of power. Spells increase with levels (fireball = d6/level ; cone of sound = 5d6, always)

2) you need good stats in all your abilities. If you only have 12 int and 12 wis, you're limited to 0,1,and 2 level powers. Sorcerers with 8 int and 8 wis, but 18 cha can cast up to level 8 spells.

Sure, you're not going to encounter a lot of psionic beings that are going to be resistant to your powers, but when you do, the mages will excel.

In short, I really don't think that psionics are overpowered or munchy. If anything, they're weaker than their spellcasting counterparts. The only thing a psion has going for him is the hope that there aren't many other psions around.

"Never pet your dog when it's on fire."

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Posts: 186

(01/22/02 21:33:52)

I just have to know where you heard that psions were munchy. Everywhere I go, I find people who think psions are very underpowered.

Remember, an ellipsis is not a proper way to end a sentence...
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psionics munchy?

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Posts: 61

(01/23/02 05:22:53)

we treat psioncs like magic.. thus if something is magic res. it is also psi. res.
psionics is another way of channeling the forces of the universe...
this tends to make it even less munchy... although you can REALLY powergame a psi. character

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Re: Psionics Munchy??

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Posts: 5144

(01/23/02 05:32:58)

classes arent munchy people are

Teach a man to fish, you've fed him for a day, beat the living crap out of him and steal his shoes, and he'll learn not to beg

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Posts: 4979

(01/23/02 07:49:41)

Quote:

although you can REALLY powergame a psi. character

Not if he's a psion...

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Re: Psionics Munchy??

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Posts: 3110

(01/23/02 09:50:48)

I think the whole "psionics are too powerful" thing is a holdover from 2nd edition. Personally, I think the designers overcompensated a bit in 3e and made psionics too weak in this version.

Veni, Vidi, Viginti: I came, I saw, I rolled a twenty.

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Posts: 964

(01/23/02 10:03:44)

You hit the nail on the head Gralhruk. Still, I like psionics.

----
So You Won The Argument, That Doesn't Mean You're Right!

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Re: Psionics Munchy??

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Posts: 0

(01/23/02 15:06:26)

Psionics certainly are no more munchy than anything else in the game, and as several others have already noted, in some ways psionics are less powerful than the standard magic system. That said, psionics do offer a couple of small advantages. First, psionics of any significant level are even more flexible than a sorcerer in terms of spontaneous casting, in that you can (if you choose) use all of your power points freely to manifest whatever level disciplines you have access to. This is similar to a wizard or sorcerer being able to combine low-level spell slots in order to cast higher-level spells. Now, this is not often a really good idea, mind you, but you can do it. Second, some psionic powers can be accessed at lower level than comparable spells (charm monster, for example. What this means is that psions can gain some of these abilities a bit earlier than a wizard or sorcerer of equal level.

Overall, I do think the designers erred a bit on the side of underpowering the 3E psionics system, but I still find it playable and feel it beats the crap out of previous attempts. Munchy though? Nah. And gods, the psionic PrCs all suck big-time - no +1 manifester level = no access to high-level disciplines. You'd be better off multiclassing as an entirely different character type than you usually would taking the PrCs out of the Psionics Handbook.

Famous Last Words #3
(The party has just won a very hard-fought battle with a dragon and is casting healing spells and dividing up the treasure. The party bard, Reynaldo, had grabbed a magic ring and put it on - not knowing the unidentified ring was a ring of wishes)
(Reynaldo) "That was a great battle, one that will inspire many songs and epic poems. I wish we could fight another opponent just like that dragon!"

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Re: Psionics Munchy??

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Posts: 38

(01/23/02 22:23:35)

I have often thought that people perceived Psionics in third edition as munchy for this particular reason... a bad reputation.

1st ed psionics: Free for any class who makes the roll. What do they get, a crap load of powers, depending on their strength, and the ability to psionically attack five times per round before the combat round starts, each round, automatically going first. LOL.

2nd ed. : hrm... lets not go there.

Suffice to say, I think Psionics have a bad rep, and because of that bad rep, they are thus viewed as Munchy.

thanks for the input people

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Posts: 7052

(01/24/02 09:26:11)

Actually, Murdok, swing by www.montecook.com. There's a revised version of the PrCs posted there with "+1 Manefester Level" incorporated.

"Whadda ya mean, Orcs get levels too?!?"

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Posts: 45

(01/24/02 11:20:45)

Also, Malhavoc has released a supplement called "If Thoughts Could Kill" that is available in PDF form for about 5 bucks on the Monte Cook website. I bought it, it's pretty good. A new PrC, some new feats, etc. The best thing is the new Powers Discovered table and the Power Scaling rule.

Also, one thing of note from it: There's the option for Psions to select two "secondary disciplines" in addition to their primary. You don't get extra powers from them, but you use your primary discipline's ability score to determine the highest level powers you can get and the DC's, etc. Very nice.

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Posts: 3110

(01/24/02 11:29:54)

Sword & Sorcery will be printing "If thoughts could kill" for Monte, 1st copies are due out around march for $9.95.

Veni, Vidi, Viginti: I came, I saw, I rolled a twenty.

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Re: Psionics Munchy??

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Posts: 0

(01/24/02 12:55:17)

I think psions are a really good class and well balanced. Too many times people focus on one aspect that may be weaker (or more powerful) than other classes and completely forget about other balancing factors.

Sure their powers are weaker than sorcerer wizard spells and the system for those powers is a little on the low side but you have to take other things into concideration. For one Psions have NO components. The can cast all of their powers tied, gagged and buck nekked and they don't need any feats to do it. One of the staple tactics aginst a sorcerer/wizard is to grapple because, for the most part, when their hads are busy they can't cast spells. You do that to a psion you will probobly get blasted off with a telekenetic blast.

There power system is also more variable than the sorcerer. As someone mentioned before they can burn their power points up on higher level powers if they need to or save them and use them on lower level powers or whatever they feel like. After that is all said and done, they are still a little weaker than your average class, but wait theres more!

What I feel is the best balancing factor is their feats. The feats that are available to them blow my mind. If those feats weren't just psion feats than I would be crying fowl. There are feats like inertial armor as long you have one power point in reserve you have a constant "mage armor" effect (+4 ac bonus), Psionic Inquisitor which lets you dectect a number of lies when talking to someone equil to your charisma modifier. Then there is up the walls which lets you... run up walls! The feats in this book are hella powerful but they are only avalable to psions and is really what makes them powerful. To be honest I'm not as interested in playing a psion as much as a psicic warrior because of those wonderful feats (and the fact that they get a lot of bonus feats).

The psion is not really over or underwowered, its a really solid class in my book but the psion is not for the beginner. Much like the sorcerer (even more so) you have to really put thought into what you're choosing for powerers and feats and where you put your scores. I think even under a point buy system a psion could be just as good as any other class.

A precisce DM is a happy DM.

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Posts: 3110

(01/24/02 13:20:27)

Of course, the true achilles heel of the psion/psychic warrior is psionic combat. Nothing better than blowing all your power points in psi combat. You've just become useless for the rest of the day without contributing anything to the game.

Veni, Vidi, Viginti: I came, I saw, I rolled a twenty.

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Posts: 186

(01/24/02 14:57:03)

That's why if you want to play a psion, its best to convice your DM to let you play a psionic goblin (blue) or a gith. Then you get 9 free defence modes per day, which means that brain moles will no longer disable you for weeks. Always handy, if a little munchy.

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Posts: 1253

(01/25/02 05:05:21)

I've said this before and I'll say it again:

Psionic combat got the shaft in 3e. Very weak and very useless, just not worth the power points.

-Lemme just get a fire extinguisher to put out the flames...

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Posts: 613

(01/25/02 07:38:16)

The only redeeming quality of psionic combat is Mind Blast.

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Re: Psionics Munchy??

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Posts: 0

(01/25/02 11:14:48)

Andorax, thanks for the heads-up re: the psi PRCs and Monte's site. I'll go check it out. Personally, if you drop the separate acquisition tables from the PsiHB and add +1 level, I think they're fine.... now to go see what Monte suggests.

Famous Last Words #3
(The party has just won a very hard-fought battle with a dragon and is casting healing spells and dividing up the treasure. The party bard, Reynaldo, had grabbed a magic ring and put it on - not knowing the unidentified ring was a ring of wishes)
(Reynaldo) "That was a great battle, one that will inspire many songs and epic poems. I wish we could fight another opponent just like that dragon!"

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Re: Psionics Munchy??

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Posts: 38

(01/25/02 14:20:01)

Hrm.. I dont think psionics are munchy, yet on the other hand, I also dont think that they are infinately weak either.

1) Mind blast is brilliant, and it is really powerful. You can take down a lot of foes, especially those with low will saves.

2) I think the telepathic powers are very balanced, if not more powerful than magic, which compensates for the lack of sufficient damage in psionic powers. Considering that a psion gets Dominate at 3rd level (lesser), that is much better than 5th level for magic.

3) Inkling is a talent, and it functions like the second level clerical spell, augury.

4) A smart psion will remain very low key at the beginning of his career. They dont have the power points to use mindblast liberally, nor do they have the power points to seriously have in impact unless they choose their application correctly: For example, manifesting psychoportation powers on others such as spider climb, glide... or charm person and astral construct. The last time I used that, I summoned several flying astral constructs to assist a centaur ranger in climbing a cliff. The ability to CHOOSE their natural abilities is very very significant. It can save the psion from drowning or falling and there are a great deal of other possible appications one could use them for... Untying a rope that binds the psion (a mage would need his hands to cast)

5) even though the spells have fixed damage, you can choose one of each that corresponds with each save. Therefore, you can elect to choose which damaging power you need for the circumstance. Fire rays are not very good against rogue, but Brain lock is or that power (I forget the name) that does 3d6 damage via direct mental assault (will) Sonic attacks require fortitude, great for wasting rogues and mages alike.

6) this is more a question, but would sonic attacks by pass hardness in inanimate objects? If so, this is also another nice advantage.

7) By fourth level powers, a smart psion can plant nasty mind seeds that compell the victim to kill him or herself. All you need to do is watch them from across the bar. The act is done later. For evil psions, the term assassin comes to mind.
(no pun intended

)

6) Time manipulation. Is there another class that can get time manipulation by 6th level?

7) Psionic feats are very formidable.

Perhaps psionics are weak in comparison to magic, but in all, they have an entirely different application as well. It seems to me that its like comparing apples and oranges. They are two different things entirely, have different applications, even if they have similar powers, and a psion who wishes to live needs to play differently; a sort of suble caution and application is needed.

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Re: Psionics Munchy??

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Posts: 3110

(01/25/02 14:35:53)

Certainly there needs to be a tradeoff between power and flexibility: the psion's flexibility means he shouldn't be as powerful as the sorcerer. I think that is reflected in the nature of the psion's powers and his PP totals.

Two glaring problems for the psion (and psi warrior for that matter) are psionic combat and ability scores.

Psionic combat is a real weakness for psionic PC's. While your enemies can raise attack and defense modes far into the night at no cost, PC's are forced to waste precious reserves to defend themselves. No PC ever wins a psionic battle - even if you "win" you've blown a huge chunk of your PP's for the day and at best you've managed to knock down a few of your opponents ability scores. Whoopee. He's probably dead by that time anyway. On the other hand, if you lose a psionic battle your reduced ability scores will limit your access to powers in those disciplines for days.

Every ability score is important to psionic characters. Whether you use 4d6 or point buy chances are you are locked out of at least one third of the available powers. That kind of cuts into your flexibility a bit.

I'm not saying that psionic characters are unplayable, or even bad, but from a balance perspective I think these two factors make them a bit underpowered compared to the core PHB classes.

Veni, Vidi, Viginti: I came, I saw, I rolled a twenty.

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