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Raistlin Vs. Elminster
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Khaine |
iniative | ||
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Posts: 429 (05/31/05 10:10:35) |
just to clear thing up, you can use moment of prescience on a initiative check.
besides that the only artifacts raistlin used to defeat the gods was his staff and the gate to the abyss. regarding elminster, no he didn't earn anything, he is mystras plaything right form square one, where she has been keeping a constant hand over him, and showering him with special powers like that broken template, because elminster is nothing but Ed Greenwoods avatar. anyway i cant see why anyone can be surprised that a lv 35 power gamed wizard can take out a lv 19 power gamed one. anyway i would place my bet on raistlin, if he could manage to take out all the gods in the world i cant see what that old guy could do, and no the dragonlance gods are as powerfull as any other collection of gods. |
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darken |
Re: iniative | ||
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Posts: 7848 (05/31/05 10:19:22) Rules Lawyer, Esq. |
Well, you can speculate on how he manage to defeat Dragonlance deities, I will not comment on that since there is no official stats for Dragonlance pantheon. However if you are in the Realms, sorry, no amount of Artifact will allow you to defeat the Gods, according to the official SDAs. And if he was able to defeat Dragonlance deities according to 3E rules regarding deities, then he is also only doing it because the author wants him to.
Darken Light, is the lack of darkness. |
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Biffoniacus Furious |
Re: iniative | ||
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Posts: 669 (05/31/05 11:00:10) Ancient Dragon |
Quote: No, Elminster is a Fighter 1/ Rogue 2/ Cleric 3/ Wizard 24/ Archmage 5, which is far from Powergamed. A level 35 FR Wizard who is powergamed could likely take on anything and win. Despite his very craptastic build, he can still beat Raistlin. Also note that there are about a dozen iconics in FR with the Chosen of Mystra template, its not something that was made just for him. Like I said before, accomplishments of these characters don't mean anything. If you say that a level 35 character who casts spells as a 29th level Wizard accomplished great things, I may be inclined to believe it. But if you say that a pre-epic character struggled through battle after battle and managed to kill an entire pantheon of deities, I'll tell you that, mechanically, its a load of BS. Even if he could have killed them, most would just come back to life a few days later and use Life And Death and he's no more. If I made a level 21 character, and wrote six 500-page books about that character killing the entire pantheon of a setting and reshaping it into what he wanted it to be before turning his back on it and joining the current campaign, the DM would laugh at me. I'd probably end up playing an insane character who just thought he'd done all that. And I laugh at anyone who actually believes that, mechanically, a pre-epic character could accomplish half of the things that Raistlin did in those books. Just because someone wanted him to do it and wrote a story about it doesn't mean anything about that character's capabilities. |
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NinjaBartender |
Re: iniative | ||
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Posts: 127 (05/31/05 18:58:26) Young Dragon |
Quote: That alone let's Elminster win my vote, hahaha. Much like already said, stat wise and spell wise, El would leave Raistlin a smoking pile of ash. A well placed blast of Silver Fire could probably do it. I always figured that eventually El would take over as the God of Magic, with something quirky happening to Mystra like during the Time of Troubles when Midnight assumed the mantle. Or at least ascend to a lesser diety role like Azuth. |
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Khaine |
elminster | ||
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Posts: 429 (06/01/05 03:01:14) |
of course its made for him, you cant have a special thing in the forgotten realms, that the favorite plaything of mystra cant do, the last time we saw that was when spellfire was introduced, and suddenly elminster had to be able to do that as well.
and yes he is powergamed, as i seriously doubt you could make a normal lv 35 wizard who had a chance against him, with all those special powers and spells etc he has. as for raistlin taking on all the gods of dragonlance, if you pay notice to the book you will see he does it by tricking the queen of darkness out to a place where he would hold the advance, and thereby ascending to godhood. it was first then that he took on the rest of the gods. and if nothing else he can always do it again if he has to face elminster, it should not be hard, since the forgotten realms gods have newer struck me as very bright. |
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Mercutio01 |
Re: elminster | ||
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Posts: 571 (06/01/05 04:41:55) Ancient Dragon |
As a long time reader of both Ed Greenwood and Margaret Weis, I have some interest in this conversation. The thing everyone has to remember is that Dragonlance was created to allow lower level characters to be heroes. The most complex creatures the heroes ever fight in the War of the Lance are draconians.
Most of the characters in DL were roleplayed at some point, brought up from level 1. Different choices are made when playing vice building. Elminster was built first, then Greenwood went back to create a character out of a face in the Realms. Elminster is just about the most powerful character in the Realms, although even he pays deference to The Simbul. Next, the argument about Raistlin and his destruction of the DL gods vs Elminster by himself has no real weight. Elminster is the lover of one of the most powerful goddesses in the Realms. He certainly wouldn't go in unarmed. Raistlin would probably rush in on a whim, whereas Elminster would study his enemy for a long time. Raistlin vs. Elminster is a ridiculously complicated battle, taking the storyline components because both characters are just about all-powerful. Taking the published stats, it's overwhelmingly in Elminster's favor. Mixing and matching between the two is absurd and this discussion will go on forever. |
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