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 Scipiox |
move silently modifier for flying |
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Posts: 398 (05/30/05 05:50:34) |
Exactly how hard is it to hear that invisible flying wizard anyways?
Hearing a flying character that's moving silently seems like it should be much harder than hearing one that is walking, but how much harder? |
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Unregistered(d) |
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andrul |
Re: move silently modifier for flying | ||
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Posts: 397 (05/31/05 09:06:11) Dragon |
I think moving silently would be automatic while flying since it's usually the side to side and up/down motions which cause clinking of equipment, etc... I'd also insist on putting a maximum flying speed since air displacement at higher speeds would cause noise itself and tend to rattle the aforementioned equipment.
Just mental meanderings. |
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ericjr77 |
Re: move silently modifier for flying | ||
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Posts: 462 (05/31/05 09:29:47) |
No bonus. The skill specifies PENALTIES for less-than-perfect surfaces. A perfect surface would therefore convey NO PENALTY.
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Cruel Despot |
Re: move silently modifier for flying | ||
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Posts: 2278 (05/31/05 09:30:37) |
I disagree with the +20 bonus. The rules do not specify any move silently bonus for flying, and +20 is a huge modifier to make up whole-cloth as a house rule.
You can't apply real-world logic e.g. "x and such would cause the clinking, etc." D&D is not a logical game. You have to rule based on game balance. Here is a good rule of thumb for any such proposal: Would you accept it if the first time you heard of it was when the DM announced it as a benefit to your opponents? Imagine that your group is ambushed by some harpies (or hippogriffs, or whatever) and when you roll listen checks to avoid surprise, the DM informs your that your foes get a +20 move silent bonus because they are flying. Wouldn't you throw a fit? |
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andrul |
Re: move silently modifier for flying | ||
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Posts: 397 (05/31/05 09:55:12) Dragon |
I'd shrug and start planning to put more points in my Listen check. Of course, I'm known for quoting rules and/or logic to our group's detriment so my fellow players wouldn't be surprised.
Hmmm, that may explain the occasional odd comment about muggers and the frequent bringing up of the difference in legal definitions of assault and battery.  Andrul
If ignorance is bliss, then knowledge must surely be an ulcer. |
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Milostar |
Re: move silently modifier for flying | ||
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Posts: 458 (05/31/05 10:12:46) |
Logic is the basis of the game, CD. The rules are what change the logic of reality into the game. Therefore, if the rules do not cover a specific situation, logic must be consulted.
ericjr77 makes a good point, though other than things like struggling to keep one's footing on ice, walking through dried vegetation (crunchy leaves & such) or very loose rocks, or running I have never known anyone to assign penalties to move silent checks for different terrains. Road, path, dirt, plain, mountain have always been treated the same to move silently. Maybe I should look into doing that a little more. However, I would assign circumstance modifiers for each situation based on the following: * Flapping wings to fly--no adjustment, since the move silently of the creature probably already takes this into account. * Gliding on wings--adjustment would be dependent on size and speed, as the larger an object and the faster an object the more noise it makes displacing air. Carried objects capable of making noise (like armor, loose backpack items, etc.) would also affect the circumstance bonus. Circumstance bonus probably between +2 to +20. * Magical flight (as Beholder or fly spell)--adjustment would be dependent on size and speed and noisy objects on the subjects person. Circumstance bonus probably between +5 to +20. Obviously, this is very subjective, so it is up to the DM to try to be as consistent as possible to promote fairness to PC and monster alike--as is part of his job at all times anyway. Disclaimer: Use these opinions/suggestions at your own risk--the resulting shock from how correct you find them is not my responsibility.
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darken |
Re: move silently modifier for flying | ||
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Posts: 7848 (05/31/05 10:31:02) Rules Lawyer, Esq. |
Quote:Now that's just crazy talk. Logic cannot cease to exist in any virtual reality system, even in a game. These systems will be internally logical, that is, they have their own logic that need not use real world premises, but they must remain logical. Do not confuse logic with realistic or scienfic. Darken Light, is the lack of darkness. |
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Batmanintraining |
Re: move silently modifier for flying | ||
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Posts: 78 (06/02/05 07:01:33) Hatchling |
I assume we are talking magical flying here. So I would also want to know what sort of "special effects" the fly spell has. Do your robes/clothes/etc, flow in the magical energies that keep you in the air? If so, how would that keep your equipment from making noise?
It wouldn't. Also, who's to say that when you move silently that your breath isn't what they hear, when you're flying you can still brush up against things. There are a lot of details in exactly how you are being quiet, and what exactly is heard with the listen check. In my mind it is sort ok like if you roll a total of 18 on an attack and their AC is 20, that doesn't mean my weapon did not hit them, it just means I didn't do damage. "Things are looking grim for the PCs" ~J. McDonald
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Mercutio01 |
Re: move silently modifier for flying | ||
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Posts: 571 (06/02/05 08:12:47) Ancient Dragon |
I both agree and disagree with CD.
The examples of flying creatures you cite have wings and flap to maintain flight. Magical flying requires neither. I would say the bonus of +20 as suggested is a bit off, but then a hide check gets a +40 when an invisible character is not moving. Changing game mechanics is really scary though. Think about a rogue with a wizard buddy or a multiclass who can cast fly and invisibility. A flying invisible rogue would be nigh impossible to detect as is, regardless of giving a +20 to MS. |
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zachol |
Re: move silently modifier for flying | ||
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Posts: 1849 (06/03/05 07:04:25) |
How about this.
When you stand still, what bonus to "Move Silently" do you get? I don't know, actually, but I'd bet +20. Now, if you're flying, it doesn't talk about movement, or flapping robes, or anything. After you get the spell cast, you don't need to move anymore. Thus, you can just stand still and move around while flying magically. Then, you're not even changing game mechanics. You're just not saying that you need to move when you fly magically. Since you're standing still, you get that bonus to move silently. Winged flight - no bonus, but you ignore ground conditions. There you are! |
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Milostar |
Re: move silently modifier for flying | ||
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Posts: 458 (06/03/05 07:14:06) |
I'd go with that, zachol, but I'd still decrease the bonus some for high speed because of the "whistle factor"--wind through your equipment generating noises.
Disclaimer: Use these opinions/suggestions at your own risk--the resulting shock from how correct you find them is not my responsibility.
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Mercutio01 |
Re: move silently modifier for flying | ||
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Posts: 571 (06/03/05 07:59:41) Ancient Dragon |
Per SRD you don't get any bonuses for standing still. You get minuses when moving more than half your speed.
Quote: That means you can stand still and not take a penalty to move silently. But by RAW, you can't get a bonus. |
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andrul |
Re: move silently modifier for flying | ||
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Posts: 397 (06/03/05 08:52:25) Dragon |
So if you can fly 90', you can do so with no penalties to MS at 45' or less! Sounds like a reasonable idea to me.
To throw another monkey wrench in: If not taking any other action, can you double move at half speed to move silently with no penalties? Seems so since a rogue can move 15' without penalty and still get to stab his frie... I mean enemy in the back. A double move is substituting the attack with another move action. Andrul
If ignorance is bliss, then knowledge must surely be an ulcer. |
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Milostar |
Re: move silently modifier for flying | ||
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Posts: 458 (06/03/05 10:29:22) |
Ok, so let me see if I've got it straight.
RAW, magical flight removes ALL penalties from Move Silently but gives no bonuses. AGP (Actual Game Play), practically no one ever bothers to apply penalties for imperfect terrain except in extreme circumstances, so magical flight probably deserves some type of bonus in lieu of there not being an enforced penalty to eliminate. The value of this arbitrary bonus/non-penalty is what is under debate now, but whatever is decided it is a house rule. If you play very exactingly, with every penalty on moving thru the given terrain, great for you, just remove the penalties. If you never take terrain into account, I'd probably go with a bonus in the +10 range. If you apply terrain penalties for really nasty/noisy terrains, I'd probably vote for something in the +5 range. But it's all really up to the individual DM, group, PC, and circumstances. Disclaimer: Use these opinions/suggestions at your own risk--the resulting shock from how correct you find them is not my responsibility.
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