The Core Cleric

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Captain Karzak	The Core Cleric	Lead	[-]
Posts: 19 (05/31/05 17:45:09) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Tags : None I started a post on these boards earlier about the archmage PrC and ended up getting a ton of great advise on how to play a wizard. I'm hoping for similar advice on how to play my favorite class: the cleric - using only material from the 3 core books. When I play a cleric, I usually am trying to fulfill a number or roles within the group: Frequently I play the role of a secondary tanks since clerics have so many melee buff spells : Divine Favor + Divine Power + Righteous Might + Greater Magical Weapon + Magical Vestment + Shield of Faith = great damage and great defense. But when does anyojne have time to cast even a fraction of those spells? And only a few of them have longer than round/lvl duration. Ive tired to make a good summoner: Sanctuary + lots of summon monster __ spells. Im not very good with these spells. Frankly, the summon monster line of spells just really seems to be a terrible option in many circumstances. Until you get high in level the monsters you can summon are pathetic. Even the strongest of monsters are trivial to a character warded with protection for evil. Maybe I just havent found an inventive enough way to use them? Cleric also make good spell slingers harm is still awesome (remember how broken that was in 3.0?) and theres a few good save-or-die spells. Any personal favorites? And of course as the groups cleric I am always the healer - I think I've got a handle on how this works. I'm not looking for an optimum build, rather I'm wondering how you guys play your clerics and what spells [core only] or combos of spells have really worked well for you?
RogueSavior	Re: The Core Cleric	#1	[-]
Posts: 54 (05/31/05 18:31:30) Hatchling Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	I play my current Cleric (who's really a Cleric 13/Paladin 3) as an Investigator. He uses a lot of spells that would classify as Divination. He solves crimes, and investigates things that happen in the area. Of course, since he's a cleric of Pelor, his job involves Healing the party, but he is definitely NOT a fighting-oriented character. He can hold his own... but its a good thing the party doesn't need him. I find your lack of faith disturbing
Duo	Re: The Core Cleric	#2	[-]
Posts: 732 (05/31/05 19:19:12) Dragon Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Take a close look at what domains you want to take. Be sure to pick domains that fit what you want your charcter to do, and (hopefully) has spells that arn't already on the cleric list. I would stay away from the alignment domains, as their granted power isn't great and the spells they give are prety much already available to you, and the healing domain isn't realy much good, unless you want to play Healy Mc Bandaid. Lets take a look at some of the domains in the PHB... Air: Comanded air elemnetals make great transportation and you also get Gaseous Form and Chain lighting, both good spells. Animal: Shapechange... thats about it here, but that alone is probly enough to make it worth a second look. Death: Deathward, Slay Living, Destruction, Wail of the Banshee, lets face it save or die spells can break the game, and this domain provides both save or die spells and protection from them. Destruction: Nice domain power, plus Harm, Implosion and Disintegrate. Earth: Comanded Earth elementals make good meat sheilds, plus you get Soften Earth and Stone, Wall of Stone, Stone Skin, Earthquake, and Iron Body, all very useful. Fire: A tone of usefuly offenseive spells here as long as your not fighting things immune to fire. (and even if you are.. you domain power may be able to help with those). Knowledge: Nice if you like Diviners. Clairvoyance and Legend Lore are quite handy to have. Luck: Prolby the best domain power, and some neet domain spells, though having miricle as a domain slot is kind of silly. Magic: One of the best domain powers, plus Dispell magic, spell turning, and protection from spells.... oh and Disjunction is here.. the spell that broke the game :P Plant: Looks sub par, but there is plenty of versitlity, espicaly if you are playing a wilderness adventure. Protection: Very nice all round protection here. Remember, every hit not taken or spell saved against means one less spell you have to expend to heal the damage. Don't underestimate Sheild Other. Strength: Good domain power, and Stone Skin and Spell Immunity are here. Nice for the run in and smash things cleric. Sun: Great Domain power in the right campain, plus Prismatic Sphere.. the best defensive spell in the game. Travel: Great domain power. Out of the domain spells, Fly is the most interesting, but they are all good for getting you out of trouble. Trickery: Invisiblity, Nondetection, Confusion, Polymorph any Object, and Time Stop, all incredible spells. War: Domain power isn't always useful, but you do get power word Kill, Stun and Blind.... no save spells are always great... Water: Not much here unless your planing an aquatic campain. Cone of Cold, acid fog, and Horid Wilting, thats about it. ------- "Yar, Must be Exploding Tuesday!" - Bikke
Biffoniacus Furious	Re: The Core Cleric	#3	[-]
Posts: 669 (06/01/05 02:59:58) Ancient Dragon Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	The Cleric's buffs are indeed one of the best things going for him. One easy way to quick-buff is Quickened Shield of Faith, Divine Power or Righteous Might and move within a 5' step of an opponent on round 1, and then Quickened Divine Favor and full-attack on round 2. Maybe apply Extend Spell to one or more of those as well. Also note that a Metamagic Rod of Quicken can help save you some higher level spell slots, plus you'd be able to Quicken higher-level spells with one. I much rather prefer some of the longer duration buffs to these. A standard Stand of Prayer Beads is one of the best items a Cleric can get. The only problem is that if you don't have an alignment domain you can't activate the Bead of Smiting unless you have Use Magic Device, since its spell trigger-activated. However, according to the item's description, if you find a strand with the Bead of Smiting removed, that strand should only cost 9,000 gp to buy. Activating the Bead of Karma before you cast your 24+ hour or 1 hour/level buffs each day is the recommended use for it. Here are a few you should be using: Magic Vestment on both your armor and a +1 Animated Shield. The bonus won't stack with the shield's +1, but it needs it to get the Animated property. At the lower levels use Extend Spell for it. Once you get to the higher levels and have an Orange Prism Ioun Stone you can cast it Extended every other day and alternate between armor and shield. Greater Magic Weapon on your primary weapon, which you should be wielding two-handed when you can for optimal damage output. I prefer to use a Large-sized Club as a two-handed weapon at a -2 to hit for being oversized. This is because you can put the Seeking property on it and not suffer a miss chance for concealment in melee. A +1 Seeking, Ghost Touch, Spell Storing Large Club is a really awesome weapon. If you get a chance to use non-core material there's a spell in the CD called Spikes which is just brutal with this. Delay Poison every day, Extended at the lower levels, will make it so you don't have to worry about that little annoyance any more. Have a Detect Poison prepared and a Potion or Scroll of Neutralize Poison handy. Cast Detect Poison on yourself at the end of each day, and if there's any present just cure it before the Delay Poison wears off. Heal can also work to cure it if you didn't use them all. I think all the other tricks I know about are non-core, such as the Persistent Spell feat (CA) for spells like Divine Favor and Meld Into Stone. Spells like Energy Immunity (Draconomicon, MotW) which have a 24 hour duration so by casting two Extended and one normally each day you can be immune to all 5 types of energy constantly. For offensive spells, Destruction is one of the best Save-Or-Die effects in the game. Flame Strike and Fire Storm are also very good. Some of my favorites are Dimensional Anchor vs creatures who may use Teleport effects to flee, and (Quickened) Dismissal vs outsider minions or summoned critters. Dispel Magic is a must until you get Greater Dispel Magic; you should always have at least two prepared each day at levels 8+. You never know when some horrible effect is going to need to be removed from a party member. Blindness/Deafness and Hold Person are great, as is Shatter on the weapons of buff warrior-types with weak Will saves. A deaf character has a 50% chance to fail casting any spell with a verbal component. Silence is a must vs enemy spellcasters. Ready an action to cast if they start using a spell. Cast it centered on a square near them so that they fall within the area of effect. If their spell had a Verbal component, the spell automatically fails and must move away in order to cast another Verbal spell. They get no save against this use of the spell, because they weren't targeted by it. In 3.0 Command was the end-all spell vs weak-willed creatures. Cast it and tell the enemy to "Die" or "Sleep" and they'll go unconscious and helpless so your allies can Coup-De-Grace it. My 2nd level Cleric did this to a Winter Wolf on the first round of combat, and the Figther gave it a CDG with an axe. They changed the spell in 3.5 to only allow a few specific commands, and none of them enable this trick to work.
Boondogler	Re: The Core Cleric	#4	[-]
Posts: 604 (06/01/05 06:55:26) Ancient Dragon Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	*Quote:* I prefer to use a Large-sized Club as a two-handed weapon at a -2 to hit for being oversized. This is because you can put the Seeking property on it and not suffer a miss chance for concealment in melee. Is this a house rule? From the SRD: *Quote:* Seeking: Only ranged weapons can have the seeking ability. The weapon veers toward its target, negating any miss chances that would otherwise apply, such as from concealment. Anyway, to the original topic.... I've almost always played clerics. At first it was becuase the party needed one, and no one else would play them. After several campains, I began to appreciate their power and flexibility. They really can do anything (even if only for the duration of a particular spell). I've taken a number of approaches with the cleric, and pretty much enjoyed them all. The healer/support cleric: This one is great with the Trickery domain. Become invisible and spend time boosting your companions, healing them, and summoning monsters to flank. One of my DMs was getting rather upset becuase my cleric never took any damage! The "blasty" cleric: Focus on spells that affect the enemy, even if your melee capability sucks. Go for higher dex, and use a ranged weapon between spells. Total damage output is much less than a wizard or fighter, but you've always got the ability to spontaneously cast healing spells. The melee cleric: Pretty well covered above. A number of postings here also reference archer clerics. Also, every cleric since 3.0 came out has taken Scribe Scroll. Typically, I try to have these available: 1ST-LEVEL Comprehend Languages Cure Light Wounds (as many as possible, until a wand is available) Obscuring Mist Protection from Evil 2ND-LEVEL Bears Endurance (great for the wizard or sorcerer, as it boosts hit points and improves Fort saves) Cure Moderate Wounds Delay Poison Remove Paralysis Restoration, Lesser Silence 3RD-LEVEL Invisibility Purge Meld into Stone (a great escape spell while underground) Remove Blindness Remove Disease Water Breathing 4TH-LEVEL Neutralize Poison Notice that all of these are for the benefit of the party. Typically, I'll try to get the creation costs out of party treasure. Since scrolls use the minimum saving throws, attack spells aren't as good. But these few (and others) on scrolls really allows you to improve your daily spell selection.
MerrieMelodyxx	Re: The Core Cleric	#5	[-]
Posts: 107 (06/01/05 07:10:29) Young Dragon Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	For your typical fighter against undead, War and Sun domains work really well. You get weapon prficiency and focus from your god (good way to squeeze in a martial weapon) and a chance to destroy more HD with Greater Turning. I'd recommend that if you have an undead heavy campaign, this would be the way to go. Take the feat Extra Turning, and definately get yourself some ghost touch armor and weapons. The cleric I play right now is, oddly enough, designed to be the party's "tank". I took domains in Strength and War, which awarded me procifiency and weapon focus in longsword. With the buffs you achieve by fourth level, it's possible to wade into battle with the best of them. (Bull's Strength, Bear's Endurance). It definately takes some strategy though. Merrie I took the road less traveled, and now where the hell am I?
Andorax	Re: The Core Cleric	#6	[-]
Posts: 7052 (06/01/05 08:19:50) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Clerics have many spells available to them that can be used to counter problems. Remove Paralysis, Remove Fear, Neutralize Poison, Cure Disease, Break Enchantment...the list goes on and on. The problem is, they become really great at "I'll help you tomorrow". That's all well and good, but when you need help NOW, you either have to have had a lot of foresight, plan your spells with an exceptionally paranoid outlook on life, or just have been really lucky. The one thing I've found helps the most with this is to take the Scribe Scroll feat. Use it, and your ability to pray for ANYTHING on the Cleric list, to store up a wide variety of "fix problem" spells, so that you have them at a moment's notice. "Whadda ya mean, Orcs get levels too?!?"
navar100	Re: The Core Cleric	#7	[-]
Posts: 176 (06/01/05 16:21:25) Young Dragon Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Indeed, I'm of the "I'll help you tomorrow" camp. I don't worry about Remove Disease, Restoration, or even Neutralize Poison unles I "just know" I will face bad guys for which such spells are needed. I usually play clerics as the back-up tank. DX is a dump stat for me. I don't need to go first in initiative. In fact, sometimes I prefer not go to first to see what happens and adapt. I will eventually get full plate for AC and will already have a large shield. My reflex save sucks anyway, and without evasion (an observation, not a complaint ) to really want to make te save, though every +1 counts, I'm going to fail such saves more often than make them anyway such that an extra +1 or +2 doesn't make much different to me anyway. I don't cast Magic Vestment on them until 8th level to get a significant +2 bonus for each for worth of a 3rd level slot, but that's only if they aren't magical already, which they usually are. Protection From evil and/or Shield of faith are fine for defense since 1st level. For a weapon, I prefer the morningstar over mace. It's lighter in weight, in case the GM is a stickler for encumbrance, but it's also piercing and bludgeoning for when that matters. (My current cleric of Heironeous has War domain, so I get to use and currently do use a long sword.) I don't bother with Magic Weapon or Greater Magic Weapon unless I "know" I'll face a DR/magic creature and my weapon is not magical, which it usually is by 9th level. For when I need or just want a boost to hit and damage, Divine Favor is it. Divine Power is staple come 7th level. Righteous Might at 9th level is overkill. Sure, it's really nice, but by that time my role as "secondary" tank is clear. I'm much more efficient only occasionally swinging my weapon. I'll be spending a lot of time healing others, buffing others, and the casting the occasional damage spell like Searing Light or even a Dispel Magic. I know I don't have time to cast all my personal buffs. I'm satisfied enough with Divine Favor and Divine Power. Righteous Might is a luxury which I'll occasionally indulge myself. I usually prefer Spell Resistance anyway, which also helps to offset my now really starting to hurt me poor reflex save. The only other personal buff I must have is Death Ward even if I "know" I won't face undead, but that's just because I'm paranoid about the things it protects against. I can always convert it to Cure Critical Wounds. All other spell slots are for everything else. I'll have the occasional damage spell. I'll have a few utility spells like Comprehend Languages. They can always become needed healing spells. I'll prepare spells to buff others with. I tend not to Summon Monsters because I don't like the full round casting time, though I am lumping it for my current cleric because I wanted to give the spells a fair shake before I totally reject them. I took Augment Summoning Feat. As for Feats, Skill Focus Concentration and Combat Casting allows me to never statistically needing to roll to make the defensive casting roll starting at 4th level depnding on your CO and maxing the skill. I know you can eventually do that with only one or neither Feat, but I want that ability at 4th level+ because I know I will be engaged in threatened areas as the secondary tank and healing/buffing party members in combat. Waiting until 9th level or 11th level or whenever is too late. The current game started within 3.5 rules but before the Complete books. I currently get to use 3.0 Persistent Spell. I wouldn't use 3.5 version. For pretty much the same net effect in a hypothetical "pure" 3.5 game, I'll take Quicken Spell. Quicken Divine Favor/Divine Power at 9th level cleric is just as good as 3.0 Persistant Divine Favor and just cast Divine Power when needed. Anyway, Extend Spell hasn't got much use from me in the early part of the campaign, but now it has, especially now at 12th level. Extend Magic Vestment is good for 24 hour protection. Extend Death Ward was necesssary for a definitely known coming attack by vampires. In our current dungeon crawl adventure, Extend Shield Other is quite helpful for our party's rogue. When I can cast 7th level spells, Extend Heroes' Feast has promise, though I'm still leaning towards Holy Word and Summon Monster VII (WI 26). If I'm going to be a secondary spellcaster as opposed to a secondary tank, then ST becomes a dump stat. Starting at 5th level I prepare Sanctuary. I might prepare it at 3rd level and Extend it. Buff spells galore, of course, but they are meant for party members. Damage spells take priority over spells meant for personal use. I could still tank up in AC, and I sometimes do. Perhaps the only thing that really changes is that I don't rush into casting Divine Favor/Divine Power. My next cleric in a hypothetical next campaign will be a secondary spellcaster. In a 2E game I effectively used the Sanctuary/Cure/Cure/Cure etc. tactic, and it worked out fine. I would do it again. I'd definitely take Augment Healing Feat. I won't be in a rush to take Skill Focus and Combat Casting. I'll be more selective where I move in combat to avoid AoO, and Sanctuary will help. Maybe, not definite but maybe, I'll take Heighten Spell to have Heightened Sanctuary to boost its save DC and have more than one such Heightened Santuary at varying levels.
Captain Karzak	Re: The Core Cleric	#8	[-]
Posts: 19 (06/01/05 20:23:01) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Thanks guys. These are great posts! I also wanted to pose an additional question: how important a spell is harm? It seems like a truly excellent damage spell. Something that might even be worthy of taking up occasional 7th or 8th level spell slot so that it can be cast a little bit more often at high levels. Are there any better offensive alternatives for spells 6-8th level? For instance, I know the save-or-die effect from the destruction makes it a solid choice too.
Duo	Re: The Core Cleric	#9	[-]
Posts: 732 (06/02/05 08:45:41) Dragon Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Well, Horid Wilting is good if you have the apropreate domain. Firestorm, Earthquake, and Holy Word, are all decent offensive options. Holy word is espicaly good if you are fighting outsiders. ------- "Yar, Must be Exploding Tuesday!" - Bikke
navar100	Re: The Core Cleric	#10	[-]
Posts: 176 (06/02/05 14:32:23) Young Dragon Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Interestingly enough, I don't cast Harm. I really couldn't previous campaign because my cleric's deity was of GM created deity of healing, family, protection, etc., and would frown upon it. My current cleric is of Heironeous. As a War deity, it would be ok to use it against enemies, especially since I'll get Power Word Kill as a 9th level Domain Spell. Still, I've found I have more priority for 6th levle spells. Heal is a staple. Even the rest of the paprty prefer I have Greater Dispel Magic. At least for our current dungeon crawl, Heroes' Feast is showing its worth. I let the lower level spells handle any damage, such as Flame Strike and Searing Light. I will, and have, cast Heal on an undead creature .
Biffoniacus Furious	Re: The Core Cleric	#11	[-]
Posts: 669 (06/03/05 07:18:53) Ancient Dragon Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Harm was a killer in 3.0, but is only useful for healing undead now. Greater Dispel Magic and Heal should fill most of your 6th level spell slots. Firestorm is very good. Empowered or Maximized Flame Strikes are also nice. Yes, you can put Seeking on a Club because it has a 10' range increment, making it a ranged weapon. Even if its a two-handed weapon, you can still throw it one-handed as per the rules on thrown weapons. I typically try to have one Remove Disease and one Remove Blindness/Deafness prepared each day, since they can be used spontaneously for Cures. Once you get the Strand of Prayer Beads, the Bead of Healing can do either one once per day so you can prepare something different instead. Neutralize Poison isn't very important because Heal can get rid of that, or a Heal skill check can give them a bonus on the secondary save. Its nice to have one Remove Paralysis prepared, as well as one Remove Fear. If the fight is a challenge for the whole party and 2+ PCs get disabled, you want to be able to get them back into the fight ASAP, not tomorrow. Lesser Restoration is great just because it fixes Fatigue, which can be very useful when enemy spellcasters are using Ray of Exhaustion and Waves of Fatigue/Exhaustion on your tanks.
Captain Karzak	Re: The Core Cleric	#12	[-]
Posts: 19 (06/03/05 12:46:23) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Thanks guys! I understand that it's in everyone's best interest that the cleric have a good stock of remedies memorized. I'm definitely going to memorize (or scribe) the spells all of you have mentioned. I too, love using lesser restoration - it's been simply indispensable in our games. But as for offensive spells I don't really see many good alternatives to harm in the standard cleric spell list. 150 points of virtually unresistable negative energy damage is pretty meaty, even though it allows a will save for 1/2. Horrid wilting is an excellent spell, but only available through the water domain. Searing light is good at the level you can cast it at but it's damage is simply aweful later on, unless you are exclusively fighting undead. In our campaigns flamestike VERY rapidly looses any semblance of usefulness - so many creatures have fire resistance / immunity. The fact that 1/2 the rolled damage is unresistable sacred damage only helps a little. Especially if the monster makes its reflex save. Still, it beats the hell out of fireball, right? Diddo with firestorm - hits more enemies for more damage but its 100% fire damage and can only target creatures on the ground. It is certainly worth memorizing in the right situation, but just for the sake of general preparedness I still think Harm might go further. Earthquake is interesting ... but it seems a little hard to use. Very terrain dependent. I totally concede that Holy word and destruction are pretty excellent alternatives. Are there any others? Harm still seems like a very useful spell to me - even though the 3.5 version is no where near the brokeness of the 3.0 version. Would I be correct in assuming that if you guys aren't healing / fixing other characters you are meleeing monsters instead? I can see why harm might get less use if you have the choice of doing excellent melee damage instead of casting.
Duo	Re: The Core Cleric	#13	[-]
Posts: 732 (06/03/05 13:29:30) Dragon Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Well there is always the other versions of Holy word... Dictum (Lawful) Word of Chaos (Chaotic) Blasphamy (Evil) Holy Word (Good) Granted, your probly only going to be able to use a few of these unless your a neutral cleric. Planar Ally is often overlooked, but it can be quite powerfull if you know what type of ally you want. Astral Deva or Trumpet Arcon are always good choices. Oh, and Miricle can duplicate ANY spell of 7th level or lower with no EXP cost. Thats prety versitile right there. And there is always Extended "True Seeing" if you have some feats to spare on metamagic.. ------- "Yar, Must be Exploding Tuesday!" - Bikke
Captain Karzak	Re: The Core Cleric	#14	[-]
Posts: 19 (06/03/05 18:11:21) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Yeah I understand what you guys are saying and I find your suggestions on spell selection to be very solid. Also that list of spells to always scribe scrolls of is very helpful advice! I was just curious why Biffoniacus Furious implied that Harm was a pretty useless spell in 3.5? I also noticed that no one else has suggested Harm as a particularly useful spell. So I am wondering what specifically makes Harm so mediocre? I think once I understand that a lot of other details will fall into place.
jiriku	Re: The Core Cleric	#15	[-]
Posts: 672 (06/03/05 22:09:08) Ancient Dragon Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Understand that Biff says 'good' where most people would say 'broken', and he says 'useless' where others would say 'average'. He has high expectations. But basically, it's about reliability, duration, and impact. 3.5 Harm is a little less than optimal because it offers the foe three chances to avoid injury, first when you make your touch attack, then when you check for spell resistance, and then when the foe makes it's saving throw. Considering that the high-HD, high-hp beasties you want to zap often have either a good touch AC, spell resistance, high Fort saves, or two or three of these things, that's a significant probability that the foe takes half or no damage. Now 5 points of damage per caster level is pretty nice, but then again, you have to get into melee and make a touch attack, and you only affect a single target per casting of the spell. Further, you can't apply most metamagic feats to it to improve it any. So while it's a solid damage spell, it's not reliable, it's not likely to swing a battle all by itself, and at best it removes one foe from one battle. Spells like Heal and Heroes Feast provide several guaranteed benefits, and Heroes feast is effectively a mass Remove Disease plus an all-day mass Aid+Neutralize Poison+Remove Fear. Think about how many spells you'd have to cast to duplicate the individual effects of that one spell.
navar100	Re: The Core Cleric	#16	[-]
Posts: 176 (06/04/05 18:45:55) Young Dragon Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Harm is not a useless spell in 3.5. It is of significant power. If you play a cast to kill cleric, it's good. You'd might be casting Slay Living at 5th levle slot as fist choice for the chance to actually kill your opponent, but even Harm can kill if the save is failed. A made saved Harm doesn't kill your opponent but still does significant damage such that the next damage the bad guy takes just may kill it. Since Destruction is a 7th level whammo cleric spell, Harm has to be weaker than that, but it's not "not worth the bother" weaker.
maddog42	Re: The Core Cleric	#17	[-]
Posts: 195 (06/04/05 19:29:43) Young Dragon Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	If you have access to Complete Divine, Augmented healing is interesting, but I really don't think it's that great. Sacred Healing on the other hand rocks. Also if you have access to that tome, Radient Servant of [Pelor] rocks, particularly in a heavy undead campaign. I currently have a cleric doing that (Sun and War - Dol Dorra - Eberron). The only downside in my opinion is the cleric borders on a healing battery for the party. That's why I want Sacred Healing, to take some pressure off my spell list. Hero's Feast makes you immune to poisons thus making Delay Poison obsolete at 11th level (where it's duration is starting to get good). Extend is nice (and Persist if your DM prefers the old version of it) but like it was said before Quicken used judiciously (or a wand of metamagic) can be just as good or better. Personally I think any Cleric should be a secondary fighter unless you just don't have the stats for it, but they should be primary casters. I believe secondary fighter means two handed weapons. If you really like your AC get an animated shield. Alternatively a Sword and Board option exists, but it takes a lot of feats you don't have a lot of to begin with. Mmmmm Scribe Scroll/Brew Potion. In the clerics I've played none have really been the best at anything, but they've all been better than most at a lot of things. Just pick a theme that you worship and run with it. Go all out within that theme and you should be happy with the character.
Biffoniacus Furious	Re: The Core Cleric	#18	[-]
Posts: 669 (06/04/05 20:01:00) Ancient Dragon Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	When a Cleric is making 3-4 attacks per round dealing 1d8+30 19-20/x2 with a +1 Seeking Ghost Touch Large Club, with Greater Magic Weapon +5 and Spikes (CD), a 6th level spell to maybe hit a monster for 75 damage isn't very optimal. Typically, that Cleric will get a Polymorph spell from his Wizard buddy to become a Firbolg (MM2) or War Troll (MM3), in which case his attack bonus and damage nearly doubles, further reducing the usefulness of Harm. Ideally, that Cleric has the Magic or Spell domain, in which case he can simply cast Polymorph or Draconic Polymorph (Draconomicon) from a scroll or using Anyspell, making him a self-sufficient combat tank. If I play a Cleric, all of my 6th level spells are spent on Heal and Greater Dispel Magic, minus one for an Easy Metamagic (DR 325): Persistent Divine Favor and minus one more for a daily Energy Immunity (Draconomicon): Sonic to complement two Extended Energy Immunities, which makes him constantly immune to all 5 types of energy.

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