Bad rolls=crap character!

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CelebornBMD

Bad rolls=crap character!

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Posts: 223

(02/03/04 21:56:12)

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I've got a friend playing in a D&D game with me as a rogue. The problem is, in our 4 person group, he has the lowest stats by far. The issue is not that he roleplays poorly, as he's fairly new to the game and does VERY well considering, but that he lacks combat capabilities. The group has 3 members with +17, 17, and 15 total stat bonuses, and he has only +10, and while I know that is not bad at all, he still lags behind compared to others. I was hoping someone had some ideas as far as helping him not fall behind. (Another major issue is that he can't even play the diplomat, as my Monk and another guy's Paladin do that too). Any ideas for another niche he could try and fill, or any ideas as to what he could do to capitalize on his high Dex and Cha while minimizing the penalties involved in his low Con, Str, and Int would be welcome (stats are 14, 16, 12, 10, 12, 17). Thanks!

Jackelope King

Re: Bad rolls=crap character!

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Posts: 6941

(02/03/04 22:16:15)

The Min/Maxed Mod

First of all, these stats are pretty good overall.

Let's see... the guy could make an excellent archer scout. With good dexterity and charisma, you can go heblade/rogue, making an absolutely nasty archer who has the added ability to weaken anemies with curses. Stay out of melee. Ranger will provide a decent number of skills to begin with. He's not a super scout, but if he can afford to take a few bow feats he'll be a very good archer. And from the position of an archer, he'll be more than capable of dealing with enemies by using curses from a safer position. Hexblade also compliments rogue very well, as when pushed into melee, he can cast the phantom threat spell, which lets him treat an enemy as flanked (awesome for someone who uses sneak attack). Going straight hexblade 10/rogue 10 would make for a very effective character.

If you don't have Complete Warrior, just going ranger/rogue could be effective. Ranger 6/rogue 14 should be little problem for a strong archer. To put that charisma to good use, going exalted might be a good idea (if your friend doesn't mind playing a goody-goody, and with a paladin in the party it's doable in terms of roleplaying).

Listen crowd, I'll tell you everything Though I have to say I don't know much

Lunarais

Re: Bad rolls=crap character!

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Posts: 8

(02/03/04 23:01:33)

Yeah, those stats aren't really that bad at all. It seems that all your characters are REALLY strong. Essentially he can do anything, but since the others have better stats, he should take advantage of skills that his class gives him. And an archer scout is also a good idea. Maybe suggest some of the more "thief" skills, such as lock pick, disable device...etc. Hope that helps!

Ogre Mage

Re: Bad rolls=crap character!

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Posts: 182

(02/04/04 00:33:24)

+17, +17, +15!! :eek

No wonder he feels outclassed. He is adventuring with a bunch of demi-gods in training! In a more average-powered campaign his stats would be quite respectable.

Seriously, rogues aren't really meant to be combat monsters. My suggestion would be to focus on optimizing his non-combat rogue time. Not all encounters are best won with the sweep of a blade. Open Locks and Disable Device are two things which only rogues can do, so it would be a good place to start. Move Silently, Hide and Sleight of Hand would also be good things to emphasize. If he can't be the diplomat, his high CHA can be put to good use in other ways. In a word: Use Magic Device. Also, Bluff and Gather Information can still be powerful tools in RP situations. If he has a decent wisdom, Sense Motive might be a good choice. He could be your "gut check," guy who knows how to size up a situation.

Gorath

Re: Bad rolls=crap character!

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Posts: 219

(02/04/04 02:06:48)

With high scores on DEX and CHA, this guy could make a perfect thief. With high scores on Hide, Move Silently, and Sleight of Hand for stealthy pickpocketing and if he gets in trouble, Escape Artist, Tumble, Bluff and Diplomacy can help out. Also take ranks in Use Rope, Open Lock, Balance, Disguise, Use Magic Device, Spot, Listen and Search, and your Thief is ready to go...

"The Dutch own football."

no interference

Re: Bad rolls=crap character!

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Posts: 3082

(02/04/04 04:28:24)

Why did the DM even let him run a character so far outclassed by everyone else? Shouldn't everyone in a given party be about even? I'd be a bit miffed if I had to play a character that much weaker than everyone else "just because"; although I'd have gone with a sorcerer and just blown stuff up anyhow.

18 STR, NO INT

*NI Medal Winners*

TLRIII: 1; NP18: 1; DethStarDriveBy: 1; Jackelope King: 2; Fudo Ka: 1; Modron03: 1

LostDM

Re: Bad rolls=crap character!

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Posts: 430

(02/04/04 05:01:29)

Make everyone else but him reroll there charaters within clear sight of the DM. Lightning doth not strike three times. Even if they were rolled fairly is messes up the whole CR system. I'm mean the occasional god per party can be interesting. Likewise a gimp can be fun for one or two adventures until it dies and the player rolls up something reasonable. But this guy would have to die several times to accidently get one of those uber charaters.

Maybe let him suddenly become an assimar.

Duo

Re: Bad rolls=crap character!

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Posts: 732

(02/04/04 05:42:49)

Dragon

He could certianly be a great sorcer, provided he hasen't chosen his clas levels yet.

All you need for a sorcer is high CHA and good Dex and decent Con.

If he has already Chosen some class levels, just make sure he is filling a niche that the other chacters in the party don't fill.

-------
"Take THIS!"
"What the... your throwing dice at me? Was that suposed to Hurt?"
"No those were my to-hit dice. Here are my damage dice!"
"OUCH!"

CelebornBMD

re:Bad Rolling

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Posts: 223

(02/04/04 06:50:46)

well, the problem is, the DM had the party use a 6x6 matrix to roll up characters (4d6, drop lowest, fill all 36 openings and choose any row or column), but this person, who is BRAND NEW to the game, had no dice and couldn't roll beforehand, so he just went straight 4d6 drop lowest and set them in place. He wants to be a TWF rogue, and also wants to be a fast-talking kind of guy, but doesn't know much at all about the game, so I helped him a little in placing his stats. The other issue is with the number of skills you wonderfully helpful people have suggested, he's spread his ranks out a little thin, with only 4-ish in some of the important ones at lvl 6. (he only gets 9 a lvl due to no int mod). Also, I helped him a little while ago roll up stats on a matrix, but he lost them, so if I get those back, he'll be in good shape, but even with them, he isn't quite sure what to do with his char, and I'm really not too good with rogues, so thanks for all your help!

Kiral06

Re: re:Bad Rolling

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Posts: 102

(02/04/04 07:09:12)

The problem I see is that his stats are already fixed on abilities. If he could switch his stats, I would advise to go for dex and intel first for a rogue. Charisma is good but skill points bonus with intel can replace lower charisma. Personnaly, I'd see something like this for a rogue charcater:

Str : 14
Dex : 17 or 16
Con : 12
Wis : 10
Int : 17 or 16
Cha : 12

This is some precent decent stats and will give a human rogue player 12 skill point/levels ; that would enable him to have 12 skills maxed out. I realized that I have a bad habit to spend skill points in some minor skill I never use like climbing, riding, etc. Just ask him to choose 12 skills and he will get them at a rank equal to his rogue level+3. High Int for a rogue is also useful for prestige class like the invisible blade, the assassin or the duelist I think.

PsiSeveredHead

Re: re:Bad Rolling

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Posts: 141

(02/04/04 07:53:02)

A good reason to use point buy.

I've found people are less upset with "low" stats if everyone has the same type of stats. That way no one is going to upstage anyone else in the group.

(It also lets the DM monitor balance problems more closely if he's letting in things like PrCs.)

CelebornBMD

re:Bad Rolling

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Posts: 223

(02/04/04 08:09:31)

yeah, I know, but my DM just doesn't like point buy too much. If you notice, the original topic was what to do to make him effective, not what methods do you suggest for balancing stats. Looking at my friend's situation, I don't know what to do to help him out, other than killing him off to try again.

no interference

Re: re:Bad Rolling

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Posts: 3082

(02/04/04 08:59:16)

Sounds like a plan to me.

18 STR, NO INT

*NI Medal Winners*

TLRIII: 1; NP18: 1; DethStarDriveBy: 1; Jackelope King: 2; Fudo Ka: 1; Modron03: 1; Thalantor: 1

CelebornBMD

re:Bad Rolling

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Posts: 223

(02/04/04 11:24:35)

Thanks for the ideas ladies and gentlemen, I'm sure he and I will figure something out!

Laguna

Re: re:Bad Rolling

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Posts: 3519

(02/04/04 15:09:03)

Local user

He could be a whoopass cleric, a whoopass Wizard, a whoopass Fighter, a whoopass you get the point.

This is why I prefer point buy. Everyone is equal.

What the deuce are you staring at? It's tuna fish... and nothing else!

Macullish Drowslayer

Re: re:Bad Rolling

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Posts: 641

(02/04/04 15:37:08)

My god, the 3 characters are monsters.......with a +10 overall and he feels like the weakling...geez.

Point buy all the way. This just reinforces what I have been saying.

As far as making him fit in, I too agree the Archer Scout role would suit him well. Or he could take levels in Bard and become the utility guy and/or emphasize his Bardic Music abilities. Just find something that works, and go with it. Gonna be hard when you are competing against maxed out guys like he is doing.

Macullish Drowslayer
"Old TZer's never die, they just post on TZT!"

CelebornBMD

re:Bad Rolling

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Posts: 223

(02/04/04 20:50:51)

Well, the thing is, he did a matrix too, beforehand, but lost it, so when we got to the table, he was statless, and rather than waste time on redoing a matrix, he just went down the line 4d6 drop lowest. Recently though, we found his old stats, which were far more impressive (12, 16, 13, 17, 14, 15). He's putting them in that order I believe, and I think he's going to go for Arcane Trickster, possibly Rogue 3/Wiz 5/Trickster 10/Wiz 2, or, if we don't get Wizard early enough, Rogue 5/Wizard 5/Trickster 10. This is going to be a great character for him Roleplay-wise, and I thank you all for your suggestions, although I'm sad to say none of them will come to fruition due to the recovery of old demi-god-like stats.

Pharius Ravenslock

Re: re:Bad Rolling

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Posts: 154

(02/04/04 23:55:55)

Point buy is really for the best...
rolled stats, even done in front of you can lead to questionable results....

since you can buy weighted D&D dice for like 10 bucks. :evil

Makin' things hot since 1983!

CelebornBMD

re:Bad Rolling

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Posts: 223

(02/05/04 06:44:20)

first of all, we used the DM's dice...if they're loaded, we're screwed anyway, and second of all, I know point buy is the fairest way to do it, but our DM likes to do a matrix, so please stop telling me how point buy is the best when I already know it and there is a whole thread about it.

Aranan

Re: re:Bad Rolling

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Posts: 7273

(02/05/04 07:08:11)

Champion of Oolong

Quote:
Point buy is really for the best...

There is no best method. Just like how there is no best way to play. D&D has a wide variety of ways to be played, and everyone has different methods of stat generation that are favored by them and their groups.

Point buy can be too fair. Everyone's similar and stats are bland.

	Aranan - Champion of Oolong!
	"How can you say that you will roleplay a character better because it is numerically inferior? That's like saying I dislike Taco Bell because my deoderant uses the power of ARM & HAMMER to 'absorb & eliminate odors'." ~Jackelope King

Macullish Drowslayer

Re: re:Bad Rolling

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Posts: 641

(02/05/04 17:18:09)

Yeah Aranan, but if everyone plays a different character, I doubt all of them will have similar stats, specially if someone throws a non human into the mix.

Macullish Drowslayer
"Old TZer's never die, they just post on TZT!"

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Bad rolls=crap character!

Bad rolls=crap character!

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